[Hijack] Debate over definition of "grit." Plus: is Midnight gritty?
- Thread starter Tom Cashel
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Gothmog
First Post
Originally posted by Emiricol:
Hmm, thats a tough one. Nothing out now is really gritty that I am aware of- although Paradigm's Spear of Loghin and Dark Reign of Nishanpur are pretty close. To me, the ultimate gritty setting was Thieves' World. Some of the Foul Locales books by MEG have some gritty stuff as well.
Hmm, thats a tough one. Nothing out now is really gritty that I am aware of- although Paradigm's Spear of Loghin and Dark Reign of Nishanpur are pretty close. To me, the ultimate gritty setting was Thieves' World. Some of the Foul Locales books by MEG have some gritty stuff as well.
Mystery Man
First Post
jester47 said:
Hey sorry about that and all, didn't mean to start a flame war and stuff.
Henry
Autoexreginated
If I see one more insult, down this thread goes.
It looks like some of you have ironed out differences, and gothmog is trying to lead us back to topic, and Tom's topic is interesting, so I'll leave it be.
But ladies and gentlemen, if we can't learn to disagree peacefully, then the topic will get closed for a while.
It looks like some of you have ironed out differences, and gothmog is trying to lead us back to topic, and Tom's topic is interesting, so I'll leave it be.
But ladies and gentlemen, if we can't learn to disagree peacefully, then the topic will get closed for a while.
Desdichado
Hero
If there's no gritty campaign setting you can think of, then the definition isn't very useful. If it doesn't describe anything, what does it mean?
Not expecting it to help, I looked up the word at m-w.com and dictionary.com. dictionary.com is worse than useless, it has two definitions; essentially a gritty setting is one that's covered with a coarse granular substance, or one that is courageously persistent or plucky. m-w.com also had a third definition, having strong qualities of tough uncompromising realism <a gritty novel>. Tom's system might arguably give grit if this definition is applied. Assuming it's realistic that adventurer's stats tend to be average.
However, in terms of actual usage, I don't think any of these definitions explain gritty the way it's typically used to describe, say a D&D game (D&D by it's very nature can't be gritty if realism is used as a key component of the definition.)
I'd say words like tough and uncompromising certainly do apply, though. Verissimilitude; my catchword to mean realism without actual realism could substitute in for realism in the definition. A setting that is harsh, dark, PCs struggle against system's or enemies they have little hope of defeating -- those are settings that are gritty, and they better fit the dictionary definition, as well as (I believe, anyway) the "common" definition. Can it have a mechanical equivalent? Yes, if the mechanics are very forgiving and allow you to get away with things all the time without serious repurcussions, then they detract from grittiness. But it's really more about the tone and details of the setting itself.
CH or others may disagree with me, but I'd say Midnight and Dark Sun stand out as quintessentially gritty settings. However, they don't assume that in order to be gritty you have to have crocked characters. Using a bit of hyperbole, let me illustrate the point I'm trying to make.
Let's say there's a setting out there in which the main focus of the campaign is an invasion of flumphs. Since flumphs don't actually attack, and -- if anything -- are more of a nuisance than anything else, this setting will struggle to gain any street cred in terms of grittiness, even if the PCs don't have stats any higher than 10. For that matter, an array of 18,18,18,18,17,16 doesn't really have any effect on the setting either. For exhibit B, let's say there's a setting in which the world has been pulled screaming down into the pit of Hell and is now the 10th level of Baator. Pit fiends wander the streets at will torturing and killing anyone they find. The entire world is periodically drenched in acid rain, or burned by active volcanoes or lava flows. Fiendish ancient red dragons rule all of the countries, brutally surpressing any sign of resistance. This setting will struggle to be anything but gritty, even if all characters start out with perfect 18s in every stat.
That's why I say -- and yes, this is opinion, not objective fact -- that gritty and stats aren't directly correlated, or even correlated at all. To turn my own phrase, they're not even on the same graph.
Not expecting it to help, I looked up the word at m-w.com and dictionary.com. dictionary.com is worse than useless, it has two definitions; essentially a gritty setting is one that's covered with a coarse granular substance, or one that is courageously persistent or plucky. m-w.com also had a third definition, having strong qualities of tough uncompromising realism <a gritty novel>. Tom's system might arguably give grit if this definition is applied. Assuming it's realistic that adventurer's stats tend to be average.
However, in terms of actual usage, I don't think any of these definitions explain gritty the way it's typically used to describe, say a D&D game (D&D by it's very nature can't be gritty if realism is used as a key component of the definition.)
I'd say words like tough and uncompromising certainly do apply, though. Verissimilitude; my catchword to mean realism without actual realism could substitute in for realism in the definition. A setting that is harsh, dark, PCs struggle against system's or enemies they have little hope of defeating -- those are settings that are gritty, and they better fit the dictionary definition, as well as (I believe, anyway) the "common" definition. Can it have a mechanical equivalent? Yes, if the mechanics are very forgiving and allow you to get away with things all the time without serious repurcussions, then they detract from grittiness. But it's really more about the tone and details of the setting itself.
CH or others may disagree with me, but I'd say Midnight and Dark Sun stand out as quintessentially gritty settings. However, they don't assume that in order to be gritty you have to have crocked characters. Using a bit of hyperbole, let me illustrate the point I'm trying to make.
Let's say there's a setting out there in which the main focus of the campaign is an invasion of flumphs. Since flumphs don't actually attack, and -- if anything -- are more of a nuisance than anything else, this setting will struggle to gain any street cred in terms of grittiness, even if the PCs don't have stats any higher than 10. For that matter, an array of 18,18,18,18,17,16 doesn't really have any effect on the setting either. For exhibit B, let's say there's a setting in which the world has been pulled screaming down into the pit of Hell and is now the 10th level of Baator. Pit fiends wander the streets at will torturing and killing anyone they find. The entire world is periodically drenched in acid rain, or burned by active volcanoes or lava flows. Fiendish ancient red dragons rule all of the countries, brutally surpressing any sign of resistance. This setting will struggle to be anything but gritty, even if all characters start out with perfect 18s in every stat.
That's why I say -- and yes, this is opinion, not objective fact -- that gritty and stats aren't directly correlated, or even correlated at all. To turn my own phrase, they're not even on the same graph.
PowerWordDumb
First Post
Joshua's post is excellent. I concur that stats don't inherently make for grittiness, though they can be contributory. It's the setting and how the characters manage to relate with it which defines grittiness or the lack thereof.
In a not-too-gritty setting, low stats and harsh repercussions for poor tactics or poor decisions can inject a certain grittiness. Add in an endless supply of curing potions and rods of true resurrection and all grit is gone.
On the converse, a very harsh setting that pulls no punches can retain its grittiness even though characters may be sporting a godlike array of stats. They may individually be near-gods, but if the world itself has them outclassed and outmaneuvered, it won't do them much good. They are after all only a small force against the overwhelming weight of the setting.
In a not-too-gritty setting, low stats and harsh repercussions for poor tactics or poor decisions can inject a certain grittiness. Add in an endless supply of curing potions and rods of true resurrection and all grit is gone.
On the converse, a very harsh setting that pulls no punches can retain its grittiness even though characters may be sporting a godlike array of stats. They may individually be near-gods, but if the world itself has them outclassed and outmaneuvered, it won't do them much good. They are after all only a small force against the overwhelming weight of the setting.
Desdichado
Hero
Yes, that's a good point, and I should make that caveat -- settings that are "on the fence" in terms of grittiness can be tipped one way or the other by some simple mechanical changes, like the crocked stats proposal Tom has here, or d20 CoC type massive damage rules. But, that setting will never be anything other than marginally gritty in such a case -- real grittiness is the setting itself, not the mechanics used. And although I didn't used to think this was necessary to say, I'll add that this is obviously my opinion, not an objective fact.
hellbender
First Post
When I apply the factor of 'grit' to a game I am running, I look to examples in literature, both fiction and non-fiction.
For example: The Black Company series by Glen Cook. Very gritty fantasy series about a band of mercenaries and their victories and defeats across a dismal world that is always just a few steps away from complete insanity. The main characters don't always win, they get beat up, their bluffs called, they have to hightail it out of town. This makes their victories all the more poignant.
For non-fiction I use books regarding war or medieval civilization for hints. From the US Civil War to Viet Nam, I mine for ideas and concepts to implement.
hellbender
For example: The Black Company series by Glen Cook. Very gritty fantasy series about a band of mercenaries and their victories and defeats across a dismal world that is always just a few steps away from complete insanity. The main characters don't always win, they get beat up, their bluffs called, they have to hightail it out of town. This makes their victories all the more poignant.
For non-fiction I use books regarding war or medieval civilization for hints. From the US Civil War to Viet Nam, I mine for ideas and concepts to implement.
hellbender
howandwhy99
Adventurer
I actually disagree. To me, gritty is neither a comparably low array of stats or a dark / grim world. It's based on fear. Namely, Mortal Fear.
I don't want my players thinking that they can do whatever they want without consequences. If they survive a deadly combat, it was because of their combined wit, quick-thinking and ingenuity. They MUST explore new tactics and think creatively just to survive. If they survive because of numerical superiority, where's the challenge, the joy, in that?
In CoC, dread of things worse than death rationalize why the group is always (and probably should always) be on the run. CoC is a dark / grim world, but it is not what I would classify as "gritty". In D&D the players are the heroes. IMO, they should have the ability to overcome great odds and savor great victory. Gritty campaigns highlight this not by making the challenge more fantastically powerful, but by increasing the level of challenge to the peak of what the - players - can handle.
[Edit - This may mean a higher body count, more set backs, and some failures. But still enough payback to keep the players hungry ...and plotting their revenge.]
The examples above seem to illustrate the extremes of what could be "gritty". On one hand, very weak characters vs homocidal flumphs could be gritty. But I doubt it could be done with much dignity. OTOH, demi-god PCs versus true gods seems equally outrageous.
So, back to the beginning, I think balance is more important than actual stat levels. D&D core is based on 25 pt buy and I've found the monsters to be fairly balanced under it. Adjust as you see fit.
Oh, and worlds are probably best chosen per what everyone in the group likes. Dark worlds, for me, often say "even when you win, you don't win." This is one of the great things about Call of Cthulhu, but for D&D I don't prefer it.
I don't want my players thinking that they can do whatever they want without consequences. If they survive a deadly combat, it was because of their combined wit, quick-thinking and ingenuity. They MUST explore new tactics and think creatively just to survive. If they survive because of numerical superiority, where's the challenge, the joy, in that?
In CoC, dread of things worse than death rationalize why the group is always (and probably should always) be on the run. CoC is a dark / grim world, but it is not what I would classify as "gritty". In D&D the players are the heroes. IMO, they should have the ability to overcome great odds and savor great victory. Gritty campaigns highlight this not by making the challenge more fantastically powerful, but by increasing the level of challenge to the peak of what the - players - can handle.
[Edit - This may mean a higher body count, more set backs, and some failures. But still enough payback to keep the players hungry ...and plotting their revenge.]
The examples above seem to illustrate the extremes of what could be "gritty". On one hand, very weak characters vs homocidal flumphs could be gritty. But I doubt it could be done with much dignity. OTOH, demi-god PCs versus true gods seems equally outrageous.
So, back to the beginning, I think balance is more important than actual stat levels. D&D core is based on 25 pt buy and I've found the monsters to be fairly balanced under it. Adjust as you see fit.
Oh, and worlds are probably best chosen per what everyone in the group likes. Dark worlds, for me, often say "even when you win, you don't win." This is one of the great things about Call of Cthulhu, but for D&D I don't prefer it.
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Desdichado
Hero
Of course they're extremes; I purposefully picked hyperbolic examples (and stated such.) But I'd still disagree that conquistadores flumphs makes for a gritty game, since flumphs have no means of actually attacking. But that's neither here nor there; the point was that in either case, the stats don't actually make either setting more or less gritty than it already is. vs. flumphs with straight 5s on your statline isn't gritty despite the inept stats, and vs. All of Hell even with straight 18s is almost impossible to do at all without being extremely gritty. Hence my argument, that I've made all along; stats don't have any real effect on grittiness. Except maybe in games that are borderline to begin with.howandwhy99 said:
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