Galloglaich
First Post
Here is a real fun sword video, something rather different
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaEZZ43WrTQ]YouTube - Spin Around[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaEZZ43WrTQ]YouTube - Spin Around[/ame]
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History, Mythology, Art and RPGs
- Thread starter Galloglaich
- Start date
This video was spectacular....and DANGEROUS looking!
And I would also like to state that I'd find watching cats sleep absolutely riveting if it was soundtracked to music like that.
Galloglaich
First Post
Similar vid from another angle (with no music, but you can hear the sword which is cool)
YouTube - ryrlen's Channel
YouTube - ryrlen's Channel
Galloglaich
First Post
Galloglaich
First Post
A mess of messers
I posted this to Myarmoury, I thought some people here might be interested as well
So I think there was an interesting technical / historical discussion emerging about Messers in the Makers and Manufactuters forum, maybe we can continue that here.
I have been interested in attempting to classify these weapons myself and try to determine their role in society and warfare but have found it challenging.
One point of confusion I ran into is that there is a whole family of messer-like weapons which seem to be related, in that they share the following features:
A long single-edged cutting blade
A long handle like a knife handle
A nagel
So I've noticed there seem to be what look like at least 6 or 7 distinct types of the 'messer'' family that I've tentatively identified. This mostly applies to the 15th Century when the earliest currently known messer fencing manuals appeared. These namess come from German terms I've seen in historical documents as well as on modern German language auction sites, and these various types all overlap somewhat, which I think has caused some of the confusion around this class of weapons.
The Hauswehr is a long, broad knife with a nagel which was used as the primary home-defense for a farmer or in some cases, a prestige weapon owned by a burgher in Renaisance HRE or Poland. This weapon is shaped like a grossmesser only smaller, with a 12"-16" blade length. I think some of these were made fancy like these from Tods Stuff...
or more simply like this antique
But in both cases had some utility as a tool while being primarily intended as a weapon. Like a bayonett for a 20th Century soldier.
The Baurenwehr is a similar long, broad knife with a nagel which was used as a work-knife by farmers and rural laborers of some distinction or social standing. I think this played a role similar in many respects to what a machete does in Central America today, both as a tool and as a prestige weapon for a certain social class (poor people of some means, essentially). This weapon is shaped like a grossmesser or sometimes is more pointed a lot like an Afghan "khyber knife", except with a nagel. Same size as a Hauswehr.
The Rugger was a hunting knife similar to a Baurenwehr, but specifcially designed for killing and / or skinning animals. These could be larger, average maybe a bit bigger or broader in the blade..
The Coltel (I think related to the Italian term Colatessa and later, possibly to the Cutlass) was also a hunting knife but with a very broad blade, which often did not come to a point, maybe rounded off or squared off. It has a nagel. I think this one is specifically for skinning and butchering animals rather than for killing. Theere are also some of these which look a lot like a bowie knife. Very similar weapons were also used in Burgundy and Northern Spain.
German auction sites refer to these types as ruggers or hauswehrs but I have come to think of them as a distinct subtype
The Grossmesser is the term I specifically apply to the shorter fighting messers, 16-28" long, sometimes with broad blades, such as you see in Durer, sometimes with narrower blades like in Lechkukner . These usually seem to be single-edged with no false-edge.
The Langenmesser is for a longer fighting messer, 28"-36" long, some of these are very long. They usually have a large nagel sometimes a clamshell type, often without quillions but sometimes big quillions like in Talhoffer. They also seem to have some with broad blades (in artwork) and some with quite narrrow blades (antiques at auction sites)
The Kriegsmesser is of course the infamous very large two-handed big war-messer, with a partial false edge and up to 48" long, though most seem to be a bit shorter around 42"-44" or so.
The Kriegsmesser also overlaps with the large Hungarian Infantry Saber (don't know of any period name for this weapon), which is very similar two handed weapon but more curved and with no partial false edge, and with the Schwiesersabel, which is a slender Swiss messer with a complex hilt.
And then you have the Falchion which is a completely different animal I think, and also has many distinct subtypes.
G
I posted this to Myarmoury, I thought some people here might be interested as well
So I think there was an interesting technical / historical discussion emerging about Messers in the Makers and Manufactuters forum, maybe we can continue that here.
I have been interested in attempting to classify these weapons myself and try to determine their role in society and warfare but have found it challenging.
One point of confusion I ran into is that there is a whole family of messer-like weapons which seem to be related, in that they share the following features:
A long single-edged cutting blade
A long handle like a knife handle
A nagel
So I've noticed there seem to be what look like at least 6 or 7 distinct types of the 'messer'' family that I've tentatively identified. This mostly applies to the 15th Century when the earliest currently known messer fencing manuals appeared. These namess come from German terms I've seen in historical documents as well as on modern German language auction sites, and these various types all overlap somewhat, which I think has caused some of the confusion around this class of weapons.
The Hauswehr is a long, broad knife with a nagel which was used as the primary home-defense for a farmer or in some cases, a prestige weapon owned by a burgher in Renaisance HRE or Poland. This weapon is shaped like a grossmesser only smaller, with a 12"-16" blade length. I think some of these were made fancy like these from Tods Stuff...
or more simply like this antique
But in both cases had some utility as a tool while being primarily intended as a weapon. Like a bayonett for a 20th Century soldier.
The Baurenwehr is a similar long, broad knife with a nagel which was used as a work-knife by farmers and rural laborers of some distinction or social standing. I think this played a role similar in many respects to what a machete does in Central America today, both as a tool and as a prestige weapon for a certain social class (poor people of some means, essentially). This weapon is shaped like a grossmesser or sometimes is more pointed a lot like an Afghan "khyber knife", except with a nagel. Same size as a Hauswehr.
The Rugger was a hunting knife similar to a Baurenwehr, but specifcially designed for killing and / or skinning animals. These could be larger, average maybe a bit bigger or broader in the blade..
The Coltel (I think related to the Italian term Colatessa and later, possibly to the Cutlass) was also a hunting knife but with a very broad blade, which often did not come to a point, maybe rounded off or squared off. It has a nagel. I think this one is specifically for skinning and butchering animals rather than for killing. Theere are also some of these which look a lot like a bowie knife. Very similar weapons were also used in Burgundy and Northern Spain.
German auction sites refer to these types as ruggers or hauswehrs but I have come to think of them as a distinct subtype
The Grossmesser is the term I specifically apply to the shorter fighting messers, 16-28" long, sometimes with broad blades, such as you see in Durer, sometimes with narrower blades like in Lechkukner . These usually seem to be single-edged with no false-edge.
The Langenmesser is for a longer fighting messer, 28"-36" long, some of these are very long. They usually have a large nagel sometimes a clamshell type, often without quillions but sometimes big quillions like in Talhoffer. They also seem to have some with broad blades (in artwork) and some with quite narrrow blades (antiques at auction sites)
The Kriegsmesser is of course the infamous very large two-handed big war-messer, with a partial false edge and up to 48" long, though most seem to be a bit shorter around 42"-44" or so.
The Kriegsmesser also overlaps with the large Hungarian Infantry Saber (don't know of any period name for this weapon), which is very similar two handed weapon but more curved and with no partial false edge, and with the Schwiesersabel, which is a slender Swiss messer with a complex hilt.
And then you have the Falchion which is a completely different animal I think, and also has many distinct subtypes.
G
Well you didn't add them to the permanent list, but it's fine. However, here's another one:
Viriato, (? – 138 BC) LG
Freedom fighter, tribal warrior, national hero
"It seemed as if, in that thoroughly prosaic age, one of the Homeric heroes had reappeared."
Viriathus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Galloglaich
First Post
I didn't? I'm not sure what you mean by that.....?
Anyway Viriathus is on the list already, he's one of my favorites.
G.
Galloglaich
First Post
This is a bit ponderous but entertaining and full of true facts
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqC_squo6X4[/ame]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqC_squo6X4[/ame]
Galloglaich
First Post
Found a good new source for costs of weapons and armor in the 15th Century.
This book
Katalog Wydawnictwa "Ibidem" - Tadeusz Grabarczyk, Piechota zaciężna Królestwa Polskiego w XV w.
Has this table in it.
http://www.historycy.org/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=10705
Which a guy on another forum translated for me. I made a new table with translated prices and names (and prices in both Prague Groschen (Pg), and German Kreutzer (Kr) which are worth 60 Kreutzer for 1 Florin or Gulden:
This is a little different from my last source and brings up some interesting questions.
Ok so, there are three swords issued here, one for 32 Groschen for horse archers, one for one for 72 for a lancer, and one for 120 in the 'very nice' category, also for a lancer.
Interestingly swords are only for cavalry here, infantry only get 'sabers' (probably messers) but more about that in a second.
So I'm guessing the sword for a horse-archer may be a strait Polish sword called a pallasch, or possibly a kanzer which is something like an estoc. But these were not really common until later if this is the late 15th Century. The top level sword, I would suspect, is a longsword or possibly just a very nice quality pallasch, perhaps with some hand protection (15th Century wouldn't be a basket-hilt like some later pallasz but it could have a knucklebow and a clamshell hilt like like this one
or this
There are two crossbows, one for footmen (48 Gr.) one for horsemen (60 Gr.). The more expensive one for horsemen is, I bet, a "German winder" or cranequin crossbow. That is about the only type of military crossbow you can use on horseback because you don't have to span it with a stirrup. A small but very heavy crossbow with a steel or laminate / composite prod like this one .
The other one is probably what the Germans called a knottlearmbrust, a stirrup crossbow with a thick solid yew prod, like this one
There are three types of sabers, the infantry one for 8 Gr is, I bet, a messer or a Hungarian infantry szalba like this one you see both on period images of Czech troops. The saber for light cavalry may be a Ruthenian (Cossack) shashka
The very expensive one for the lancer could be a Turkish Killij, or a Swedish heavy saber, or a a Karabella, or a really nice quality Polish or Hungarian Szalba with a complex hilt, like this one:
.
The cheaper horses are probably a schweik or a zhmud, the more expensive would be coursers or destriers. Expensive!
I was also impressed with how expensive the brigandine was. But that jibes with my other numbers too. For some reason a brigandine was considerably more expensive than a basic cuirass. Maybe because it was more flexible and less bulky?
This book
Katalog Wydawnictwa "Ibidem" - Tadeusz Grabarczyk, Piechota zaciężna Królestwa Polskiego w XV w.
Has this table in it.
http://www.historycy.org/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=10705
Which a guy on another forum translated for me. I made a new table with translated prices and names (and prices in both Prague Groschen (Pg), and German Kreutzer (Kr) which are worth 60 Kreutzer for 1 Florin or Gulden:
This is a little different from my last source and brings up some interesting questions.
Ok so, there are three swords issued here, one for 32 Groschen for horse archers, one for one for 72 for a lancer, and one for 120 in the 'very nice' category, also for a lancer.
Interestingly swords are only for cavalry here, infantry only get 'sabers' (probably messers) but more about that in a second.
So I'm guessing the sword for a horse-archer may be a strait Polish sword called a pallasch, or possibly a kanzer which is something like an estoc. But these were not really common until later if this is the late 15th Century. The top level sword, I would suspect, is a longsword or possibly just a very nice quality pallasch, perhaps with some hand protection (15th Century wouldn't be a basket-hilt like some later pallasz but it could have a knucklebow and a clamshell hilt like like this one
or this
There are two crossbows, one for footmen (48 Gr.) one for horsemen (60 Gr.). The more expensive one for horsemen is, I bet, a "German winder" or cranequin crossbow. That is about the only type of military crossbow you can use on horseback because you don't have to span it with a stirrup. A small but very heavy crossbow with a steel or laminate / composite prod like this one .
The other one is probably what the Germans called a knottlearmbrust, a stirrup crossbow with a thick solid yew prod, like this one
There are three types of sabers, the infantry one for 8 Gr is, I bet, a messer or a Hungarian infantry szalba like this one you see both on period images of Czech troops. The saber for light cavalry may be a Ruthenian (Cossack) shashka
The very expensive one for the lancer could be a Turkish Killij, or a Swedish heavy saber, or a a Karabella, or a really nice quality Polish or Hungarian Szalba with a complex hilt, like this one:
The cheaper horses are probably a schweik or a zhmud, the more expensive would be coursers or destriers. Expensive!
I was also impressed with how expensive the brigandine was. But that jibes with my other numbers too. For some reason a brigandine was considerably more expensive than a basic cuirass. Maybe because it was more flexible and less bulky?
Galloglaich
First Post
Medieval Forensics
I'm going to post a few links on this subject, here is the first on the famous Wisby battlefield in Gotland in Sweden, from the late 14th Century
Wisby
Churchmouse: Battle of Visby Burials, Sweden.
G.
I'm going to post a few links on this subject, here is the first on the famous Wisby battlefield in Gotland in Sweden, from the late 14th Century
Wisby
Churchmouse: Battle of Visby Burials, Sweden.
G.
