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History, Mythology, Art and RPGs

Matthew_

First Post
Well, it seems to be a cultural / military barrier, in all three cases. I wasn't as aware of the trade angle until reading the speigel article, (can you elaborate on that?). But as much as we tend to think of them as the same today, the Scandinavians and Germans are quite different and were even going way back when the Danevirke was originally built (when that was precisely isn't sure, maybe during the Migration era, maybe earlier) and I think the Danes definitely wanted to keep the Germans out as they often continued to need to do for the next thousand years.

During the migration era obviously a big wall is a especially a plus. It won't keep roaming armies out but it will make it trickier and more dangerous for them to cross (especially trying to get back across it with loot).

I think the distinctions between Norse and German got much more marked after Charlemagne converted the Saxons ... the brutal nature of that conversion also apparently alarmed the (still pagan) Danes. As we know back then pagan Europeans and Latinized Christian Europeans were basically oil and water. Somewhat less so for the Irish for example who while Christian were not entirely Latin in their culture until later in the Middle Ages, but there was clearly a kind of 'ethnic' hatred on both sides.

Similarly the Romanized Britons were "oil and water" with the Picts and other wild tribes of the far north, as were the Han Chinese from the various nomadic barbarians of Mongolia and Siberia. They couldnt' understand each other and couldn't come to some peaceful long term stable arrangement - the Monarchy / State and the tribal societies just don't mix. So there needed to be a wall.

Can you elaborate on what you mean about the roll of walls and trade a little bit? What they said in the article seemed to make sense though it's the press not an academic writer so precision or context is frequently off...
Not sure I can do much better than wax lyrical about what I remember of my undergraduate courses, and I think that it might well be mixed up in the "grand strategy of the Roman Empire" discourse [i.e. whether they had one or not]. From what I remember, it used to be thought that Hadrian's Wall (and to a lesser extent the Antonine Wall and the Danube Frontier) were literally barriers expected to protect the Roman territories in a very literal way from the barbarians, much as is depicted in the often unintentionally hilarious King Arthur film, and that the Great Wall of China was pretty much the same sort of thing.

Of course, fortified castles and towns of the ancient and medieval ages did not command avenues of march like their early modern and modern counterparts, lacking as they did artillery, which is one of the chief points R. C. Snail made many years ago in his book Crusader Warfare. The defence "in depth" once envisioned for the Holy Land of fortifications simply did not reflect the reality of the situation, and much the same can be said of the grandiose claims once made about Roman static defences. The relatively modern realisation that medieval warfare was conducted largely through raiding, sieges, and the avoidance of battle contrasts somewhat with the more frequent battles we hear about in the ancient world, but there are still lessons to be learned there.

I am waffling a bit, probably because a lot of this is much vaguer in my memory than I would like to admit! However, what you get with a big wall marking territorial boundaries is much the same as with any other ancient or medieval fortification, which is to say something that a) Makes a huge statement about your power to friend and foe alike, b) Reduces the effectiveness of low scale raiding, cattle rustling and the like, c) Is a barrier to large scale military action, if not insurmountable d) Lets you control to a large extent who passes peacefully back and forth between the divided territories.

The manpower required to defend Hadrian's Wall is said to have been ten to fifteen thousand, which was about 5% of the total under arms (if I remember rightly estimated at 300,000), so a significant number, but realistically capable of defending 70+ miles of wall from a concentrated effort? Maybe, I guess you cannot rule anything out completely, but would it really be more militarily effective than a field army? Hard to countenance, just so much that could go wrong with a static defence, too easy to cut sections off and so on. Militarily, what the wall more likely provided on that scale, with its set back forts and garrisons, was an early warning and informational transferral systems that would allow a field army to be mustered at the right point(s).

But dealing with full scale invasions would be by far the exception, and not at all the day-to-day purpose of the wall. Apart from discouraging and blunting raids and immigration from beyond the wall, it allowed the Romans to control what went from the Roman side to the non-Roman, and vice-versa, and at what cost. Roman coinage flowed from the centre of the empire out to the frontiers where it paid the armies, and then out into the wild where it was too often lost to the civilised world. The profit from trade (and the forts would themselves have operated as trade centres) must have been significant, but control of trade also made it theoretically possible to restrict the sale of Roman munitions to the barbarians. Charlemagne had to rely on the obedience of his subjects measured against their greed for gain when he forbade the sale of Frankish swords to the enemy, but the Romans could more easily and actively restrict the transport of such items (indeed, the military commanders should have been particularly invested in ensuring the barbarians remained militarily inferior in terms of technological scale).

Now, I could well be wrong about all of the above, as I say it has been a long while since I actually studied the subject, but a quick look at the Wikipedia entry for Hadrian's Wall suggests to me that I am probably not too far off the mark in my (certainly by now much altered) recollection. Might be worth looking into the subject further next time I am in the library, if time allows (or I suppose I could browse the internet, or maybe just start a thread or do a search at RomanArmyTalk).

EDIT: I should add, I thought it was interesting that they had a brothel right next to the front gate. Truck drivers are truck drivers even 1000 years ago I guess....
Ha, ha. Yeah, well, I guess if the gate was part of a military outpost (and I can only suppose it must have been) it would be surprising if there was not a brothel in the vicinity! :D
 

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Galloglaich

First Post
On another forum, somebody asked about the plausibility of a medieval or pre-industrial society resisting a more sophisticated or high tech invader in a guerrilla war. Most people thought it would be unlikely in a Feudal society.

But of course, Ye Olde Days weren't like a Monty Python skit or a Ren Faire. There are several very good Medieval examples of extended guerilla warfare against odds which are hard to imagine could be worse.

The Russians were partially conquered by the Mongols in the 13th Century but continued active and passive resistance, in spite of routine massacres on a huge scale. In one exchange in 1380 the Russians wiped out an army of 150,000 Mongols and Turks from the Golden Horde, two years later in 1382 another Mongol Army under a different general besieged Moscow and killed 24,000 people after it surrendered. But the Muscovites remained 'difficult'. This went on and on for another 100 years until the Mongols finally backed down rather than face another nasty fight with the Russians during the reign of Ivan III (father of Ivan IV 'the Terrible', the first independent Russian Czar).

In Hungary there was similar resistance to first the Mongols, then the Ottomans. Specifically Skanderbeg and John Hunyandi are worth looking at during the latter period. And of course Vlad Tepis in Romania.

In Lithuania they had to deal with the Mongols on one side and the German Teutonic Knights and Livonian Knights on the other side. One particularly good example is Samogitia. This tiny spit of land, a Primeval forest called The Grauden, was invaded over 300 times in the course of 200 years. The invaders were repeatedly caught in ambushes and wiped out, including the infamous Crusading Order of the Sword Brothers which was broken in 1239 and the Livonian Order which was crippled in 1259. The Baltic people who lived there were called the Samogitians, sort of Baltic Vikings. They never surrendered, in spite of being sold-out by their own allies in Lithuania 3 times. They were the last European people to convert to Christianity, in 1413 AD!!, and retained their own form of government called a 'Tribal Eldership' through the 15th Century. They were basically left alone to mind their own business until the 19th Century.

Lithuania in general is a good example of Guerilla resistance because they were facing higher technology with much lower-tech, the Germans had plate armor, armored warhorses, giant warships, cannon, crossbows, and guns; the Tartars had horse archers and all kinds of special weapons, as well as a truly modern command and control capability. But the Lithuanians defeated them both using mostly light cavalry armed with javelins and spears, and all kinds of tricks like ambushes and hornets nests and running people into bogs and deadfalls, i.e. clever use of terrain.

I have also held forth probably enough on here already about the Bohemians, who also fended off both the Germans and the Mongols successfully and fought any number of guerrilla and open war campaigns to defend their land.

Another good example in Europe that most people never heard of is the Dithmarshen, a swampy region in Saxony (northern Germany). They resisted something like 7 or 8 full scale invasions from Denmark and Germany between the 11th and 16th Centuries, for example an army of Saxon peasants won a major battle there in 1500 AD, defeating several thousand heavy cavalry and mercenaries.

There was a nearly identical situation in nearby Frisia. Look up Gross Pier.

People have already mentioned Scotland and Wales upthread, Ireland could be added to that in spite of being conquered they performed an on again off again guerrilla campaign from the arrival of the Normans until the time of Oliver Cromwell, again using very simple low tech weapons like darts and javelins and heavy infantry in chainmail armed with two-handed swords and axes against sophisticated Elizabethan English armies which had guns and heavy cavalry etc.

The Swiss of course, founded their State on exactly this type of resistance.

Another region of a great deal of this type of activity was the Pyrennes mountain range between France and Spain, going back to the Bronze Age, there were many examples where lower tech or less well organized people fought off more sophisticated and better equipped invaders, going back to the Romans.

Basically there are hundreds of historical examples, if I had more time I'd list a few more but I gotta run.
 

Galloglaich

First Post
Here is kind of a cool axe-fighting video from Hammabourg, these techniques are from historical sources

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_k8ybRyD4eU]YouTube - hammaborg, peter falkner, mordaxt, 63v[/ame]
 

Galloglaich

First Post
HEMA inspired stage combat, from Bohemia
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPfLZFHcNv4]YouTube - ?ehart - long sword and other historical weapons[/ame]
I particularly like the dussack work.
 

Galloglaich

First Post
Us HEMA-istas like the ones in slow-motion because you can make-out the techniques, but it is also fun sometimes to see them at full-speed, or even a bit more than full-speed like in this excellent demonstration from a Czech HEMA group.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln94E9AGYTc]YouTube - Zwerchhau, absetzen, nachreissen - longsword techniques training[/ame]

I haven't seen anyone sparring with quite that degree of precision and speed yet, but we have come much closer to that in the last few years. If you squint your eyes a bit you can now start to see what blossfechten really looked like circa 1470. Very scary, brutal. I want to see this in a movie.

G.

EDIT: Slovakian not Czech

I'd also present this as refutation to any SCA people who think HEMA practitioners don't hit hard enough... this is speed with precision.
 


El Mahdi

Muad'Dib of the Anauroch
Yeah, that last one was truly outstanding. It amazes me just how much seeing the real thing puts the lie to so many myths and preconceptions about medieval combat...especially as compared to "hollywood" medieval combat.

Two-handed swords were slow and cumbersome...ummm, okay...

Combat was all big swings and draw-cuts...whatever...

Asian martial arts were superior to European...not only not true, but it amazes me just how similar they appear. It just goes to show how using similar weapons, whether in Europe or Asia, may have some differences due to the armor you're fighting against, but for the most part are largely the same. It shows how the evolution of combat, although sometimes developed independently, is mostly based upon effective, intuitive, practical, and universal techniques - and not some magical foreign skill unknown to the rest of the world.

Outstanding Video!:D
 

Galloglaich

First Post
Yeah whenever I watch an old Kirosawa Samurai movie, the ones from the 50's where they still have the realistic fencing, I feel on completely familiar territory, it's like watching a HEMA tournament. Same guards, same cuts. The only real differences are from the physical design properties of the sword, two edges. vs. one, having the cross etc.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuqwtFwJ7V4]YouTube - duel from 7 samurai[/ame]
 



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