History: The actual time it took to create a harness.

[Mark]

Galethorn, that sounds like an extremely modern way to see armor making... It might be true, I have no real knowledge of medieval armorsmithing, but what you're describing is production line assembly

AR

You're confusing Mass Production with Assembly Line Work.

 

[Saeviomagy]

[NITPICK]
You can never Take 10 on an Aid Another action.
[/NITPICK]

Astounding... That's one of the first rules that goes out the window in my games from here on in. I don't want to have to roll the checks for 15 apprentices. Much less the 30 apprentices that people will hire if they know that half of them will fail...

 

[Galethorn]

Galethorn, that sounds like an extremely modern way to see armor making... It might be true, I have no real knowledge of medieval armorsmithing, but what you're describing is production line assembly

AR

As was said, you seem to be confusing mass production with assembly lines.

Assembly lines have existed at least since roman times, and by the late middle ages, guilds--being a major part of the societal structure--had the resources, know-how, and motivation to use assembly lines. In fact, it was medieval guilds doing that sort of work that really led to the industrial revolution, not specific inventions like a lot of historians like to think.

Anyway, this whole situation is akin to asking how long it would take their character to build a car in d20 modern. Sure, a skilled engineer and machinist could probably do it, but it takes a whole production team and factory to make a good car in any reasonable time.


Aaaaanyway, back to the actual point of the thread, I'd estimate that it would take one skilled armorer about six weeks to make a full suit of plate armor, starting with sheet metal, and ending up fully polished and ready to wear, so long as they had the help of 1-2 appretices at a couple places along the way. That would be working 8-hour days, seven days a week...

But, that's just an estimate, based on how long it took my friend to make a helmet with minimal tools and experience, compared with how long it takes the 'pros' to make the stuff in their spare time these days.

 

[J_D]

In 1520, four master armorers were able to complete a set of masterwork full plate armor for Henry VIII within two months so that he could attend a tournament. That'd be about 8 man-months. The following link tells you more about it:

http://www.plessisarmouries.co.uk/studies/tonlet/

This is close to the finest suit of armor ever made, fitted particuarly to Henry VIII, so regular run-of-the-mill armor probably wouldn't take nearly as long.

(Personally, I'd consider this to be such great armor it'd give a +10 armor bonus instead of the usual +8.)

 

[Steel_Wind]

As was said, you seem to be confusing mass production with assembly lines.

With the greatest of respect, the original poster had nothing confused at all. He was bang on point.

The example you gave was a Division of Labor, which is *most* unartisan in its approach.

What you are referring to as "assembly line" production is aka the American system which dates from about 1800 - and not Roman times.

Add a moving conveyor and you have a production line, a la Henry Ford, but the two concepts are removed by a century of innovation and the heart of the Industrial Revolution - and not by two millenia.

If you have some links to back up what you've just said above, I'll listen, but ... I'm *very* skeptical.

 

[Mark]

Wit the greatest of respect, the original poster had nothing confused at all. He was bang on point.

The example given was a Division of Labor, which is *most* unartisan in its approach.

What you are referring to as "assembly line" production is aka the American system which dates from about 1800 - and not Roman times.

Add a moving conveyor and you have a production line, a la Henry Ford, but the two concepts are removed by a century of innovation and the heart of the Industrial Revolution - and not by two millenia.

If you have some links to back up what you've just said above, I'll listen, but ... I'm *very* skeptical.

Yeah, he's got his correction kinda mixed up. Mass Production has been around a long time, with specialists making particular parts of a larger work. (Automated) Assembly Lines were a more modern invention that allowed workers to do their Mass Production work in one place, and brought the piece work to them. I think Galethorn was picking up on what I said, but then flipping it around.

 

[Imperialus]

I used to work for a place called Valentine Armouries here. We turned out a full suit of 16th century english round armour for a wedding once in a little less than a month. It acutally just makes perfect sence that there would be devision of labour in an armoury. For example, since I was quite young at the time and mostly just working there as a summer job since the owner and I were friends I was typically religated to rough cutting the peices out of the steel sheets. After I was done one of the more experianced guys would clean the cuts and hammer them into their rough shape at which point Rob (the guy who'd been making a living at this for 20 years) would take over and do the detail work and ensure peices fit together well when it would go onto a final aprentice who would add the buckles, rivets, linseed oil wash and polishing. If anyone else was avelable we would subdvide the final step further with one person polishing the peices while another added buckles. However there is a limit, you can really only effectively have 4 to 5 people working on a single project before they just start getting in each others way.

You don't become a master armourer overnight, and it's a complete waste of Rob's time to cut the peices if I am capable of doing it, that's what aprentices are for, grunt work.

As for the SCA comment, I'm not sure how much stock I would put in them. Their armour construction methods are run by lawers not historians. IIRC the required thickness of a helmet according to SCA rules is somthing around 8 gauge. 8 gauge steel is almost impossible to work without a metal press which was not a common sight in the 16th century. This combined with their use of bizzare materials (I saw one suit of "armour" made out of tires and a helmet made from an old propane tank complete with the valve) makes them look like a bunch of casting rejects for power rangers villins and cirtantly makes the anachronistic part of their name all the more fitting.

BTW if you're in the SCA dont' take offence. I've actually made exellent friends with a great many SCArs and have enjoyed the limited chances I've gotten to go to their events, I just dont' think that the SCA should be the first source people consult about how things really were.

On average it took us between 1 and a half to 2 and a half months to compete a suit of Gothic, Round or Millanese armour, the three quintissential full plates if you will. This depended a great deal on the style of amour with Gothic taking the longest due to the fancy sweeping fluits covering the suit with the function over form Millanese style taking the least time. It also depended on the needs of the customer and how much detailing was required. The longest ever spent was 3 1/2 months on a suit of 17th century currasier armour that was embossed head to toe (er kneecap) with Ivy. The suit itself took about 3 weeks of that time, the detailing took the rest.

Oddly enough the second longest amount of time we spent on a suit was on a WoTC special order for the Gen Con where 3rd ed was released. There was a model dressed up like Redgar who we made the armour for. That one mostly just took a long time due to the massive number of concept sketches and the like we went through before having a design approved that would be physically possible to make and wear.

 

[jasper]

I...
As for the SCA comment, I'm not sure how much stock I would put in them. Their armour construction methods are run by lawers not historians. IIRC the required thickness of a helmet according to SCA rules is somthing around 8 gauge. 8 gauge steel is almost impossible to work without a metal press which was not a common sight in the 16th century. This combined with their use of bizzare materials (I saw one suit of "armour" made out of tires and a helmet made from an old propane tank complete with the valve) makes them look like a bunch of casting rejects for power rangers villins and cirtantly makes the anachronistic part of their name all the more fitting.
.
.....

Oddly enough the second longest amount of time we spent on a suit was on a WoTC special order for the Gen Con where 3rd ed was released. There was a model dressed up like Redgar who we made the armour for. That one mostly just took a long time due to the massive number of concept sketches and the like we went through before having a design approved that would be physically possible to make and wear.

Just two comments. Right about the lawyers however min gauge is 16 for head and joints unless local region standards are thicker. The Propane tanks are very old school but you are right about the rejects remark
Second on the Redgar armour. This is what I hate about fantasy art and movies even before 3E is in real life the armour would not work if made out of materials it was suppose to be.
Third (hey so I can't count) D&D is game and I have made peace with stuff I know is just game related and have no relation to real life. After all we don't have taxes taken out everytime we pass Go in Monopoly.

 

[Stalker0]

If your having problems getting your armor done quick enough by standard craft rules, try the most common variant: you may increase the DC of any craft check (most limit this to +10) to craft the item faster.

So assuming you can make DC 28 craft checks you would go from making 504 sp a week to 784 sp a week. This would drop the time for 30 weeks to 20 weeks.

So 5 months for one guy to make platemail. With 2 apprentices you could get 896 sp a week (32 craft check with 2 +2 aid another). That would drop it down to 17 weeks. If you didn't cap the bonus to +10 and allow the DC to rise to 32, it would give you 1024 sp a week, and then only take 15 weeks, so about 4 months.

Still not too great, but better than before.l

 

[Enkhidu]

...As for the SCA comment, I'm not sure how much stock I would put in them. Their armour construction methods are run by lawers not historians. IIRC the required thickness of a helmet according to SCA rules is somthing around 8 gauge. 8 gauge steel is almost impossible to work without a metal press which was not a common sight in the 16th century. This combined with their use of bizzare materials (I saw one suit of "armour" made out of tires and a helmet made from an old propane tank complete with the valve) makes them look like a bunch of casting rejects for power rangers villins and cirtantly makes the anachronistic part of their name all the more fitting...

This is pretty much spot-on. While there are armorers that cater to the SCA crowd that do make period style pieces, much of the armor you see is put together by people without a few grand to spend on a period suit, and as such is made to pass safety inspections (for example, I have a heavily modifed spangehelm made of 14 guage with 12 guage bands - I'm fairly sure that I could run over it with a car and not deform it).

I have seen several of those armorers move into more period forms, though, and some of the pig faced bascinets I've seen are nothing short of gorgeous.