Hit points alternative, please comment.

[Ferret]

I rushed this first post as I hadn't taken time to think the idea over, please look at my next post.

 

[Ibram]

actualy, i dont understand what you are trying to do here. are you talking about using Dex instead of Con when determining HP?

 

[Khaalis]

Sorry Ferret - but your message just isnt clear in its message. I am not sure what you are really asking to do.

 

[Chacal]

I'm having trouble understanding what you're trying to do.

I guess you're talking about having
- HD based on Creature type (D8 for dwarves, D12 for dragons)
- Number of HD based on Con rather than level (like 1HD for 5 points in Con ?)
- small Bonus hp when levelling.

Maybe you should
- state what you think is wrong or misrepresented in the current system (this could be your "you can train reflex but not bone resistance")
- propose your system and illustrate with examples.

But remember that hp are an abstract mechanism representing much more than resistance.
You might want to try grim n gritty or wound points alternatives .



Chacal

 

[Ferret]

What I'm saying is that HD should gauge how tough a creature is rather then it's constitution and also remove Fort as apart from building up resistences to poisons/drugs, you cann't train to make your self tougher, where as you can raise relexes our train you mind.

What I'm saying in the first part is that (for example) dwarves have 3d8hp+X*Y hp(x is levels y is number per level) but elves have 1d8hp+X*Y hp. The HD would never rise (except in advanced creatures) as this would represent how tough the creature is naturally, and the hp from the class would represent how many hits they can take that are just minor a cut here a bruise there.

Also once you get down to your HD you start taking penalties to attack etc.

Whats wrong is that until you get to 0 nothing changes. Like you said it's abstract.

Grim and gritty seem to grim and gritty for me. Can you show me where wound points are explained?

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

wound points are explained in SW: d20. Perhaps other places - I'll leave that to the experts.

So your points are as follows:

1) Each creature should have a base number of hit points determined simply by it's being that creature, plus a number of additional hp for each class level that creature obtains. You cite Elves as 1d8 + a number of bonus hp per calss level, dwarves as 3d8 + a number of bonus hp per class level.

2) Remove constitution as a Fort Save modifier and as a hitpoint modifier.


Using this system, the bonus hp's received from class levels represent cuts/scrapes/bruises - i.e. damage the character takes in that is not life threatening at all - this increases per class level due to increasing skill in 'rolling with the blow' so to speak. Once damage dealt has removed all class level bonus hits, further damage is applied to the base creature HD (1d8 for elves, 3d8 for dwarves from your example) and causes penalties to d20 rolls for that character based on how many hit points it loses from the base HD for that creature.


Is that about right, i.e somewhat close to what you are saying?

 

[Prothall]

The WP/VP system is available free off WotC's website. It's simpler and more elegant, as well as being easier to use, than most variants. The only other HP variant I'd be interested in (other than a completely new health system) is one with "levels" of woundedness, a la Paranoia, but generally this just makes things bothersome - I'm not fond of the Grim & Gritty rules.

 

[Aaron2]

What I'm saying is that HD should gauge how tough a creature is rather then it's constitution and also remove Fort as apart from building up resistences to poisons/drugs, you cann't train to make your self tougher, where as you can raise relexes our train you mind.

The problem with removing Con from HPs is you remove the benefit of endurance in defending. Sure you may be quick, but if you tire after one or two rounds you're not able to keep your defenses up as well. IMO, this is the main factor of Con that applies to HPs. If you visualize that > 0 hps means that you haven't, in fact, recieved any serious wounds yet then the HP model makes more sense.

What I do is ignore the -10 hp limit and instead assume that any hit bringing you below 0 hps was recieved in ernest and roll on a chart to determine the effect of that wound; effects can range from ability damage to severed limbs.


Aaron

 

[Ferret]

wound points are explained in SW: d20. Perhaps other places - I'll leave that to the experts.

So your points are as follows:

1) Each creature should have a base number of hit points determined simply by it's being that creature, plus a number of additional hp for each class level that creature obtains. You cite Elves as 1d8 + a number of bonus hp per calss level, dwarves as 3d8 + a number of bonus hp per class level.

2) Remove constitution as a Fort Save modifier and as a hitpoint modifier.


Using this system, the bonus hp's received from class levels represent cuts/scrapes/bruises - i.e. damage the character takes in that is not life threatening at all - this increases per class level due to increasing skill in 'rolling with the blow' so to speak. Once damage dealt has removed all class level bonus hits, further damage is applied to the base creature HD (1d8 for elves, 3d8 for dwarves from your example) and causes penalties to d20 rolls for that character based on how many hit points it loses from the base HD for that creature.


Is that about right, i.e somewhat close to what you are saying?

Yes, and very funny with the i.e

The WP/VP system is available free off WotC's website. It's simpler and more elegant, as well as being easier to use, than most variants. The only other HP variant I'd be interested in (other than a completely new health system) is one with "levels" of woundedness, a la Paranoia, but generally this just makes things bothersome - I'm not fond of the Grim & Gritty rules.

I'll look around the WotC website.

p.s Are the levels of woundedness like Vampire or werewolf games?

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

So since I got this right...

1) Each creature should have a base number of hit points determined simply by it's being that creature, plus a number of additional hp for each class level that creature obtains. You cite Elves as 1d8 + a number of bonus hp per calss level, dwarves as 3d8 + a number of bonus hp per class level.

Umm Racial hit die + class hit die. Not a bad idea - especially since all racial hit die are listed in the MM. I'd not grant 3d8 to dwarves and 1d8 to elves though. Why would anyone be encouraged to play an elf?

2) Remove constitution as a Fort Save modifier and as a hitpoint modifier.

Removing con as a fort save and as a hitpoint modifier makes it trash stat - pretty much the only one the game. Now you'll see dwarves with 6-9 CON suddenly.

You comment that it can't be trained, etc. I disagree. Toughness is a quality that a person can develop and enhance. Just as you can build up a tolerance to poisons (natural ones, at least) by training your body, you can also build up toughness in your body via training. There's some real world examples I can cite if you're interested, but real world vs DND is always apples to oranges as the DND concept of hitpoints is an abstraction.

Using this system, the bonus hp's received from class levels represent cuts/scrapes/bruises - i.e. damage the character takes in that is not life threatening at all - this increases per class level due to increasing skill in 'rolling with the blow' so to speak. Once damage dealt has removed all class level bonus hits, further damage is applied to the base creature HD (1d8 for elves, 3d8 for dwarves from your example) and causes penalties to d20 rolls for that character based on how many hit points it loses from the base HD for that creature.

Instead of removing CON as a mod, and adding in racial hit die (racial profiling anyone?), consider this alternate proposal:
New Skill: Combat
In-class for any fight based characters (fighter, ranger, paladin) and cross-class for all others.
Benefit: For every 5 ranks in Combat, the character automatically receives a DR +1. This represents the characters growing skill at 'rolling' with blows, advancing training in knowing how to take hits, and the ever increasing general toughness of an experienced adventurer.
Special: Should grant a save vs damage somehow to reflect the general toughness of the character in absorbing damage. If failed, DR doesn't apply and full damage slips through.

In all honesty, I think you'll find that the vp/wp system is much more along the lines of what you're looking for. Some minor modifications to it should suit you just fine.