Hit Points and D&D

[Desdichado]

I think the issue is that any high-damage attack has a tremendous chance of instantly killing our heroes -- even though a seemingly lethal weapon like a sword or arrow has no chance of instantly killing anyone.

Yeah--but is that gripe "theoretical" or has it actually been a problem in play, is my question.

I don't know that I'd consider a critical hit actually having the ability to cause death a flawed system. It's still not as easy as folks are making it out to be--you need to deplete Wound points equal to your CON score, plus an additional 10 (IIRC, you still die at -10 in a VP/WP system). And this is in a game where crits don't multiply. To me, we've found that while a critical hit can be a scary thing that makes you back up and regroup, or look for some kind of healing, it's not at all the death-dealing nightmare that it's being painted as in this thread.

 

[mmadsen]

First of all, I reject your criteria. To me, that PC's and important NPC's cannot usually be dropped by a single attack and predictably are not is a significant boon and a sign of good design.

The problem is not that our PCs are never dropped by a single attack, but that no one competent is ever dropped by single attack, whether or not they have plot protection.

And hit points make for very odd hero points with a lot of inconsistencies:

• Hit points are only lost when you're hit.
• How many hit points you lose is a function of how damaging the attack is.
• How many hit points you get is a function of toughness: Con bonus, levels in "tough" classes, etc., not Dex bonus, plot protection, etc. Hit points aren't suppressed by being flanked, etc.
• Hit points require healing.
• But hit points are arguably "luck" points that represent not really getting hit, so we can believe an unarmored man consistently takes dozens of spear thrusts and sword slashes without harm.

 

[Desdichado]

Ah, just looked them up on d20srd.org and found out that I was wrong--the "dying" status is different as described there than it is in D&D.

We must have housed ruled "dying" to be like D&D and then forgotten that we had house-ruled that. Either that or we didn't mean to houserule it, didn't read it carefully enough or forgot it, and played "dying" like D&D anyway.

 

[Jedi_Solo]

I'm a bit surprised by the complaints from the Wound/Vitality crowd that it makes the game suddenly "deadly" or "grim and gritty."

Have y'all actually played with the variant and found that to be the case? IMO, it is not. In fact, since it was designed to be the exact opposite, I find that very odd indeed.

I have played with the Wound/Vitality system in Star Wars, and it was very deadly indeed. There were multiple times in the four to five months of the campaign where one of the PCs was taken out at the start of the day's adventure by a mook with a lucky critical. ALways a risk in a game like this, but very, very boring for the player as the rest of the group tries to get the PC back into the fight. Even if they do, from Star Wars' almost non-existant healing, the character is knocking on death's door for the rest of the session.

Almost every time anyone confirmed a critical it took a character out of commision (I say "almost" since there were a couple of times that minimum damage was rolled). Since the DM rolls their d20 a lot more than the players do (more characters on the battle map) the DMs going to roll more criticals.

 

[Desdichado]

But hit points are arguably "luck" points that represent not really getting hit, so we can believe an unarmored man consistently takes dozens of spear thrusts and sword slashes without harm.

I've never found that unbelievable. It's not true to life, but it certainly is true to action movie conventions, which is probably more true to D&D than real life anyway. In those kinds of movies, protagonists (and villains) do take serious-looking damage that somehow does not seem to impede them. In fact, it often seems to make them more competent, if anything. And then when the fight's over, they don't walk around looking all beat up and tired, they look heroic, maybe covered in a bit of dirt and blood, but standing tall and proud and walking, running, fighting, etc. as if nothing is wrong.

Like I said, not true to life, but not necessarily a problem. It does successfully emulate (IMO) what happens in movies quite often.

 

[mmadsen]

I don't know that I'd consider a critical hit actually having the ability to cause death a flawed system.

I think the issue is that the quality that makes you tough and heroic, your high hit points, does not make you any less vulnerable to critical hits (in the wound/vitality system), so it's random in a bad way. The numerous cannon fodder are each almost as likely to score a crit as the PCs, and there are far, far more of them.

 

[Desdichado]

I think the issue is that the quality that makes you tough and heroic, your high hit points, does not make you any less vulnerable to critical hits (in the wound/vitality system), so it's random in a bad way. The numerous cannon fodder are each almost as likely to score a crit as the PCs, and there are far, far more of them.

I know, but I'm still trying to see why that's a problem. I know that's different from how hit points work, but I'm putting forth the argument that that's a feature, not a bug.

 

[Victim]

I'm a bit surprised by the complaints from the Wound/Vitality crowd that it makes the game suddenly "deadly" or "grim and gritty."

Have y'all actually played with the variant and found that to be the case? IMO, it is not. In fact, since it was designed to be the exact opposite, I find that very odd indeed.

Well, there are two changes with VP/WP. The first is basically a descriptor change of HP - that VP represent not really getting hit - coupled with a faster natural healing rate. The second is that some attacks will bypass normal HP and start attacking HP based only on CON. In our experience, most hits that go directly to wounds are going to incapicate people. Damage scales, Con doesn't (if damage doesn't scale, then the increasingly VP totals will make non crits ineffectual thereby promoting crit=win in another manner). So the ability skip HP makes the game more deadly and more random. So if VP/WP wasn't designed with the goal making the game more deadly, then the second major change is a massive mistake. Which wouldn't be unexpected given other elements of the Star Wars RPG.

Oh yeah, I guess diminishing the link between NPC level and HP would be a 3rd major change.

 

[Jedi_Solo]

I know, but I'm still trying to see why that's a problem. I know that's different from how hit points work, but I'm putting forth the argument that that's a feature, not a bug.

It may be a feature or a bug depending on what kind of game you want to run. To me, personally - it is a bug.

Wounds/Vitality means that any PC can be taken out by any low level mook at any time. A 20th level character I have been playing for years on end gets killed by Peon #3 at the start of the session.

With the increased chance of getting killed by a no-name nobody comes the chance of getting taken out earlier in the session (as happened multiple times in our Star Wars campaign) which causes problems of boredom by the downed PC's player if the group can't give them good medical attention (healing can be a serious problem in Star Wars - not sure how the alternate rules work for D&D).

My main problem is the first one I brought up. I'm in this for the story and I don't want the story that I have worked with the DM on for years to come to a abrupt end when the DM rolls a lucky critical. It's not my character dying that I'm opposed to. If it brings my story to a satisfying conclusion than I will be more than willing to offer my PC as a sacrifice. But getting gacked by a low-level goon at the start of a session won't be the good ending to my characters story that I want.

 

[mmadsen]

I know, but I'm still trying to see why that's a problem. I know that's different from how hit points work, but I'm putting forth the argument that that's a feature, not a bug.

The system works against itself. On the one hand, player characters have tremendous plot protection, via vitality points. On the other, they can be killed in one shot, with no recourse. Now, with a few precious hero points to use up on those criticals, it might all work out fine, if not elegantly.