Hit Points at half?

[Somebloke]

I've been running, off and on, a 4th edition game with my gaming group. We've been enjoying the campaign, but there have been a number of grumblings with the system- so much so that there has been some debate about switching. I am not particularly fond of doing so if only because the campaign 'flavour' has become slightly reliant on the rules in that a lot of the character's 'aspects' (to borrow a term from FATE) have evolved from their playstyles which have in turn evolved from the game.

One of the biggest complaints was the feel, especially at Heroic level, that combat consists of 'chipping away' at monsters (and themselves) before a blow is struck. Whle I like 4th ed with is easily my biggest problem with the systeml, and so, several months into the campaign, we elected to reduce hit points by 25% (both players and monsters).

This has resolved the issue to a degree- however recently the complaints have surfaced again. The rogue especially dislikes the fact that she cannot (with the use of dailies and completely maxing out her bonuses, and even on a critical) kill a 'mook' (a standard monster of n-2 to n0, with n= player's level- obviously not minions) monster with one strike- something that her 'assassin' character should be able to do. This has led me to considering dropping the hit point totals of the players and monsters to 50%.

My question is- has anyone done this before? If so, what sort of repercussions has it had on the game? I worry that the party wizard will become more or less unstoppable with mass-area effect spells (he already means that minions are more or less a waste of time for me). Any comments or advice would be appreciated.

 

[Spatula]

I think the rogue's assumptions are basically incompatible with the system. 4e combat centers around small groups, not lone wolves, and non-minion opponents are designed to not go out in one hit. Although I also wonder if that character has actually maxed out her bonuses, because killing a n-2 creature in one hit with a crit on a daily, and an AP follow-up attack, should certainly be possible.

Anyway, I don't have anything really helpful to offer. I found fiddling with monster HPs too much work for me, so I favor boosting damage (by +1/2 level or +level) over messing around with the HP totals, but that's just me. AoEs and multiple attacks become better either way, combats go quicker, and monsters get very few actions before they are killed.

 

[SparqMan]

There are lots of threads and blog posts regarding dumping HP and/or raising damage. It doesn't sound like your player/group wants combat to move faster, but is more disappointed with the results.

If your rogue wants to be slaying, give her some minions that go pop in one hit. If she wants a more satisfying one-hit-kill, then give her a chance to kill a powerful villain or NPC via a much more elaborate setup.

I'd also suggest that there is some perception shifts that can help. Every hit is a hit (and even misses can be described as poorly landed hits), so if it feelings like they're just chipping at defenses but not actually damaging until bloodied, try giving the players more description. The next time your rogue lands a hit, describe what happened. Losing HP is a total abstraction, so it can range from damaged equipment, bloody squirts, loss of limbs, disemboweling, etc.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I could understand if your players were complaining about combats being overly long, but "I can't one-shot a monster that's supposed to be a genuine threat to the party" seems like a totally ridiculous position to be taking, and not one worth taking seriously.

Others have got it right: "mooks" are minions. Anything that's not a minion is not a mook.

Now - the issue may be that you're running too many level -2 to level -1 creatures, and they're not scary to face because they can't hit and are very easy to hit in turn but they still take time to chew through, and that's a fair complaint. Swap them all out for minions and only leave creatures which are distinctive as full-blown monsters.

Point out to her that cinematic one-shot assassinations are against non-combatants or mooks. ie - minions. In fact the primary thing that characterizes a cinematic assassination is that the assassin tends to flee and avoid any tough opposition.

 

[bbjore]

I play with a group of up to 8 people, so to speed things up we reduced just monster HP to 50%, doubled the rate their powers recharge, and basically doubled their at-will damage (it's actually scaled slightly based on whether the original attack was low or high damage). I also had to double PC resistances & regenerations, that way they had a similar amount of utility.

We like it. Combat lasts about four rounds, which is nice, but it is much more deadly. I drop a PC below zero pretty much every encounter. But there's enough of them around that it isn't to problematic. A rogue pulling out all the stops with a daily, AP, and a minor action attack will kill a standard mook no problem, and a striker will drop most standards in two rounds. It works even better with a smaller number of PCs, 4-5 PCs vs. 4-5 monsters goes really fast. Do this, and always keep your monsters at the same level as the PCs (challenge them with more monsters, solos, & elites), and combat will definitely not feel like a grind. It will however, feel much more dangerous, which your players also might not like. Just start small, and slowly ramp up your encounter level until you find the right mix.

On a side note, if your players think more than one round is too long to kill a standard mook, remind them a round is only 6 seconds. In real life, it is very difficult for someone to actually die in 6 seconds of fighting.

 

[eriktheguy]

I don't think the 50% is a bad option. Also apply the scaling to potions and self damaging effects though.
Alternatively, you could try a coup-de-gras style 'one-hit-kill' system to make your strikers feel awesome with their dailies.
If you take your bloodied value in damage in one hit, you are reduced to zero hit points.
This would probably mostly happen to mooks, and not to PCs. If it does, you could always give them a save to avoid going down.

 

[SparqMan]

If you're feeling particularly cruel, let the rogue face a monster that can kill HER in one hit.

See how it feels.

 

[dangerous jack]

My question is- has anyone done this before? If so, what sort of repercussions has it had on the game? I worry that the party wizard will become more or less unstoppable with mass-area effect spells (he already means that minions are more or less a waste of time for me). Any comments or advice would be appreciated.

I've reduced hit points of monsters that appear in groups (e.g. standards) to 50%. Monstrous Elites and Solos I tend to lower to 66% or 75%, and humanoid Elites and Solos I lower sometimes a lot more (to 33% in some cases).

As for repercussions, I should note that my PCs don't have a controller, but I have been giving out magic items that do area attacks and a few of them have multi-classed to grab a controller-ish power.

• I've been able to increase the numbers of creatures that I throw at them without allowing them to meta-game which are minions.
• Combats have gone a little faster so I think we can move from 2 combats per session to 3. Note: we level up every 3 or 4 sessions regardless of the number of encounters they get through...
• I can also put the standard monsters in defensively advantageous positions without really turning it into a grind.
• I can do waves of attackers in a single encounter.

A lot of this you can do with minions, but I have a bit of personal dislike for the jump from 1 hit minions to 5+ hit standard creatures with nothing in between. YMMV

 

[Ahnirades]

I've a dislike for the jump from 1 hit minions to 5+ hit standard creatures with nothing in between. YMMV

One solution is to introduce a class of monsters with the same stats as standards, but any hit landed on them auto-crits. Call them "normals", "rank-and-file" or whatever and award 50% or 66% xp for their defeat.

 

[Firebeetle]

I have run a group for my son and his friends, and went to 50% while increasing monster damage (+5 per tier). This worked really well, making combats go a lot faster while scaring the PCs when they are hit. I like the idea of recharges being doubled (I might start with a "freebie" recharge instead).