Hit Points & Healing Surges Finally Explained!

[Ahglock]

People have pointed to REH's work. And, yes, occassionally there is an extended rest in there. Usually Conan being tended by the love interest. If there is no plot reason for the extended rest, it never happens. Conan shakes off the wound and off he goes.

It's funny, you can name any number of genre examples of characters using Healing surges, yet, for some reason, they aren't considered at all. Exploder quotes from The Lord of the Rings yet ignores Frodo's mithril armor. Constantine is mentioned, yet, the fact that his lung cancer never actually stops him from doing anything, isn't.

Look, I think this is straying somewhat off topic, so, let's have it out shall we? We'll start naming examples from genre or popular fiction where you have extended rests and healing surges/second winds and we'll see who runs out first.

Who's game?

I can't think of many situations where the damage is described as bad and a short rest later they are fine and dandy. Most attacks usually are near misses or scratches. While books where people get run through and seem fine moments later exist they are not common in my experience. Now I'm a fan of Manga like Bleach, one piece, and Naruto, and it happens almost every combat panel there. So for many looking to books as an example the 4e healing system does not jive with them.

Also books and movies are not something everyone wants to emulate. People frequently don't want the plot immunity that main characters in novels and movies usually have. They don't want to die, but they don't want to be immune to it.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Actually, a few years ago I read a short story by Robert E Howard which featured a barbarian king. I can't remember the title, but it was a short story. He fought this enormous dragon-python with a very poisonous bite. After defeating it, he was nursed back to health over what read like several months, but could have been several weeks. It could have been Cormac, Kull, or Bran Mak Morn.

Niall, I believe.

Great story.


RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

No, but fortunately there were many specific points about how your argument is flawed in the other thread.

Whatever helps you sleep at night, mang.

Me, I'm starting to think that "Apples & Bananas: The Same Thing!" might be a great thread here. They both have the same level of fruitness, after all, so there can't be any major difference. And, if you claim that there is, I can say that you are arrogant and claiming that my position denies objective reality.


RC

 

[Hussar]

I can't think of many situations where the damage is described as bad and a short rest later they are fine and dandy. Most attacks usually are near misses or scratches. While books where people get run through and seem fine moments later exist they are not common in my experience. Now I'm a fan of Manga like Bleach, one piece, and Naruto, and it happens almost every combat panel there. So for many looking to books as an example the 4e healing system does not jive with them.

Also books and movies are not something everyone wants to emulate. People frequently don't want the plot immunity that main characters in novels and movies usually have. They don't want to die, but they don't want to be immune to it.

Well, don't tell me, show me. I started the thread so, let's compare.

But, I'm specifically answering the points brought up by Exploder Wizard that somehow 4e's healing system doesn't fit with the genre. That it turns the game into "Fantasy Supers". I've pointed out several examples from genre where 4e's healing system would fit the text pretty darn well. So, I'd say that it is pretty well in keeping with the genre that D&D is trying to be.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

When looking at comparisons, it must be remembered that 3.x has subdual/non-lethal damage as well as normal damage. So movie/book scenes where the hero is beaten up, but recieves no open wounds can be modeled in 3.x using subdual damage.

 

[Hussar]

When looking at comparisons, it must be remembered that 3.x has subdual/non-lethal damage as well as normal damage. So movie/book scenes where the hero is beaten up, but recieves no open wounds can be modeled in 3.x using subdual damage.

Would you claim that the cave troll in Lord of the Rings was trying to subdue Frodo?

 

[Brown Jenkin]

Would you claim that the cave troll in Lord of the Rings was trying to subdue Frodo?

No, I would argue that he was wearing mithral armor that protected him. The armor acted as damage reduction and Frodo was left with a bruise. The way Tolken wrote it it comes off in my mind as much like a bulletproof vest stopping a bullet. D&D, whether 3rd or 4th, does not model this type of damage/protection at all.

 

[Raven Crowking]

When looking at comparisons, it must be remembered that 3.x has subdual/non-lethal damage as well as normal damage. So movie/book scenes where the hero is beaten up, but recieves no open wounds can be modeled in 3.x using subdual damage.

So do all previous editions, AFAICT.


RC

 

[billd91]

Would you claim that the cave troll in Lord of the Rings was trying to subdue Frodo?

Certainly not, but the spear did enough damage to Frodo to not only temporarily knock him into La-La Land him but also slow him down until someone with healing powers took care of him (external healing resource) after some miles of travel.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Well, don't tell me, show me. I started the thread so, let's compare.

But, I'm specifically answering the points brought up by Exploder Wizard that somehow 4e's healing system doesn't fit with the genre. That it turns the game into "Fantasy Supers". I've pointed out several examples from genre where 4e's healing system would fit the text pretty darn well. So, I'd say that it is pretty well in keeping with the genre that D&D is trying to be.

I agree and disagree with both of you.

I have not looked back at your examples but for my own example, I would say that the 4E system suits the episodic play of something like the Conan tales. Even being crucified with circling birds is not enough to kill Conan. And in fact, natural healing or assisted non-magical healing is definitely the way in just about all the fantasy novels I have read. Compare this to Clerical healing that dominates previous editions of the game and I think the basis of what you are saying is true.

However, it is the pace of this natural/assisted healing that takes it into "supers" territory. While with the crutch of divine magic, such speed is understandable, I think a similar speed for non-magical healing is a little wacky, or "supers" if you prefer. However, if you slow this natural side down to a more "normal" rate, then you have the disparity in healing of previous editions which is not what they were trying to promote in 4E in gamist terms.

The fact that a character can heal from any injury to tippy top condition within a day puts a strange timespan on the healing process. The logical conclusion is that either:
- You never receive a severe injury in the game unless you die from it (which jives with Mearls's advice to never describe an injury that the warlord can't "heal"), or
- Healing in the default world is at an extremely rapid state compared to "normal". [Or if you will a mix of the two.]
I'm not the biggest fan of this situation being the baseline in terms of the rules. There have been several fixes for this suggested which seem to work though.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise