Hit points & long rests: please consider?

[aco175]

I'm coming into this arguement late, I skipped several of the in between pages going back and forth about what HP's actually are.

I'm in favor of a faster mechanic to gain HP. The simplest is to gain everything in one night. It gets people back to playing faster. I guess that I also mean getting back to fighting faster, since that it around 1/2 of my game night.

I tend to find it rather boring to track a lot of the mundane items unless there is a need. Food, water, arrows I mean if there is no reason other than to have teh character remember to buy more when you are in town and to check if they are too encoumbered, meh. Now if they all just excaped into the desert from prison, then this becomes important.

Healing is similar when all the characters start rolling saying things like 'Let's see, I'm 3rd level so I have 3 dice and the cleric gives me one heal each day.' Roll, roll, roll. 'My guy's ready in 3 days.' 'Did anything happen?'

I would be in favor of something that is easy with realism under ease of use. All your HP, maybe 1/2 your HP. If you got back only 1/2 maybe some characters would be up to full and some still woulded. I gather they could spend their hit dice to go to full or mostly full, but have nothing for the rest of the day. I wonder how many groups would just brush over this next day ond have eneryone up to full.

 

[Mercutio01]

I wonder how many groups would just brush over this next day ond have eneryone up to full.

I would guess, based on this thread and many others like it, that many groups would skip over that. My group is not one of those. For one thing, when the crap hits the fan and the game begins to hit stride, time is frequently of the essence and things need to get done before catastrophic results occur. I take it that a lot of games and gamers don't seem to use ticking clocks for scenarios, but I usually do and the gamers I play with generally do as well.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

There's nothing in any of the three core books that says all magic items are available in all places. In fact, until you get to a "small town" (population 901-2000), nothing smaller can have even one wand of CLW, and a small town can literally only have one on hand, and that's assuming it's got nothing else to sell, or that they'd be willing to part with it. I'd say I was using the rules exactly as written (and intended).

That's not the way the rule works.

Yes, you need a small town (901 people) to get a GP limit of 800gp, but that means that anything of 800gp or less in value is generally available. To find the total number available, it's 1/2 the GP limit multiplied by 1/10 of the population. For the smallest large town, that's:

(800 gp / 2) * (901 / 10) = 400gp * 90 = 36,000 gp worth of any individual item.

36,000gp / (750gp / 1 wand of CLW) = 48 wands of CLW available in-town

You may not like the rule (and many people don't, and change it), but by default, out-of-combat magical healing in 3.XE was cheap and plentiful past the first couple levels (e.g., the expected wealth of a 4th-level character is something like 6k gp, so a normal party of 5 could spend about 6-7% of their net worth on full-price wands of CLW and get 150 charges of healing, or roughly 825 hit points worth of healing, on average).

Wands of lesser vigor are, of course, even more efficient (the same price gets you 1,650 hit points worth of healing).

Sure, they can make it themselves, provided they have the feat, a workshop, tools, time, and the expenditure of experience points. I've got no problems with that.

It takes a feat, 375gp, a couple XP, and a day. That's really it. But, again, that just makes the magical out-of-combat healing even more efficient - making their own is not required to achieve the cheap-and-plentiful nature of 3.XE.

Again, it's not just taking a long nap and mysteriously healing all hit points. It takes active investment and the expenditure of resources.

But the point is that it's a trivial amount of resources, in 3.XE. And, yes, buying a wand of CLW means you can't spend that 375gp/750gp somewhere else and you'll eventually run out - but, again, that's a miniscule amount of the party's overall wealth past the introductory levels, and you can buy an awful lot of healing by default.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I would guess, based on this thread and many others like it, that many groups would skip over that. My group is not one of those. For one thing, when the crap hits the fan and the game begins to hit stride, time is frequently of the essence and things need to get done before catastrophic results occur. I take it that a lot of games and gamers don't seem to use ticking clocks for scenarios, but I usually do and the gamers I play with generally do as well.

It's not that you can't use ticking clocks - they're fantastic devices to keep the plot moving - but, rather, that having a ticking clock in the background all-the-time turns it from tense to trite.

 

[Mercutio01]

That's not the way the rule works.

Yes, you need a small town (901 people) to get a GP limit of 800gp, but that means that anything of 800gp or less in value is generally available. To find the total number available, it's 1/2 the GP limit multiplied by 1/10 of the population. For the smallest large town, that's:

(800 gp / 2) * (901 / 10) = 400gp * 90 = 36,000 gp worth of any individual item.

36,000gp / (750gp / 1 wand of CLW) = 48 wands of CLW available in-town

Learn something new every day. That's never how I read that. I read that as gross income in the town for all people, not how many of each item could be there. I guess I've been playing it wrong since 3.5 was introduced.

Wands of lesser vigor are, of course, even more efficient (the same price gets you 1,650 hit points worth of healing).

True, but that's because Lesser Vigor is a broken spell, and from a supplement.

It takes a feat, 375gp, a couple XP, and a day. That's really it. But, again, that just makes the magical out-of-combat healing even more efficient - making their own is not required to achieve the cheap-and-plentiful nature of 3.XE.

But the point is that it's a trivial amount of resources, in 3.XE. And, yes, buying a wand of CLW means you can't spend that 375gp/750gp somewhere else and you'll eventually run out - but, again, that's a miniscule amount of the party's overall wealth past the introductory levels, and you can buy an awful lot of healing by default.

And by that point you can also produce a lot of magical healing by default anyway. My gripe is not, and has never been against magical healing (except maybe that it's too easy to find). It's magic. My gripe has always been against the idea that hit points never represent a solid hit, that damage never means actual damage, and that healing never means actual healing, at least if I'm to go by everyone who likes naps that that restore all hit points.

Obviously I just play D&D different from fans of 4E. I hate mundane healing, and I particularly hate the redefinition of "hit" "damage" and "healing" to means "near miss" "loss of luck" and "catch a breath." And if that means that even Gygax got it wrong with 1E, then so be it.

I think people have the opinion that when I narrate a hit, I always describe the damage as being some life-threatening or crippling injury. But that's not the case. It's usually something like "opened a small cut along a forearm" or "that's going to be black and blue for awhile." And every game of D&D I've ever run or played since I was a kid was run the same way. And thus, magical healing that eases the pain or closes the wound makes sense, but taking a nap or having someone shout at you does not.

I like the Hit Die mechanic that DDN has going. You have to use a healing kit (expend a resource) and take a short rest (at least 10 minutes) and patch up any wounds (fluff that matches the events). I don't like the instant restoration of hit points after camping for the night.

 

[Mercutio01]

It's not that you can't use ticking clocks - they're fantastic devices to keep the plot moving - but, rather, that having a ticking clock in the background all-the-time turns it from tense to trite.

Well, there you're reading something that I didn't indicate. For times when there isn't a ticking clock, of course I handwave away days (or even weeks or months or years, as the case may be).

 

[Neonchameleon]

My gripe has always been against the idea that hit points never represent a solid hit, that damage never means actual damage, and that healing never means actual healing, at least if I'm to go by everyone who likes naps that that restore all hit points.
...
I think people have the opinion that when I narrate a hit, I always describe the damage as being some life-threatening or crippling injury. But that's not the case. It's usually something like "opened a small cut along a forearm" or "that's going to be black and blue for awhile."

Quoted to point out that we are describing exactly the same thing in exactly the same way. However I consider the pain, and the fatigue from damage to get less over time. A five minute break and stopping to bandage your wounds and put ice on them will make them less serious than the immediate few seconds just after you picked them up. The cuts will stop bleeding.

I hate mundane healing, and I particularly hate the redefinition of "hit" "damage" and "healing" to means "near miss" "loss of luck" and "catch a breath." And if that means that even Gygax got it wrong with 1E, then so be it.

It also includes scratch, as yours does. What those of us who don't like hits as damage are arguing against isn't this. If a hit is a hit then you aren't playing it that way. You are playing it as we are.

But if you hate mundane healing, why do you think that a cut that's both bandaged and clotted is as dangerous to the person with the cut as one freely bleeding while the user is moving harshly and keeping it open? If endurance factors in to hit points, why can't you catch your breath? Why are boxers stronger and harder to knock down coming out of the break between rounds than they are going in? There's more mundane healing.

And every game of D&D I've ever run or played since I was a kid was run the same way. And thus, magical healing that eases the pain or closes the wound makes sense, but taking a nap or having someone shout at you does not.

OK. We're going to do an experiment. I get to hit you in the face. Hard. You tell me how painful it is then. And how painful it is five minutes later. Given that I expect you to be fighting back tears immediately after the hit and to just find it really annoying five minutes later, I want to know exactly why you think taking a nap doesn't make it less serious.

I like the Hit Die mechanic that DDN has going. You have to use a healing kit (expend a resource) and take a short rest (at least 10 minutes) and patch up any wounds (fluff that matches the events). I don't like the instant restoration of hit points after camping for the night.

So come play 4e! Your damage still remains after a short rest. You have still expended healing surges, which measure the total amount of punishment you've suffered across the day. You need to expend your own internal resources to heal up - which is what healing surges are all about. Hit points are closer to a shock value. The jab a boxer takes at the end of the round is more likely to knock him to the floor than the one at the start of the next round even if they are the same strength. This is because his hit points have had time to heal (something you think doesn't happen) - and he's spent a healing surge to make this happen.

Hit dice are just healing surges with a new coat of paint and slightly lower numbers.

And as for instant restoration after a night's rest, I houserule that out in 4e myself. It does however do one good thing - puts hit points and spells onto the same recharge mechanic.

Edit: And your playing 3.5 "wrong" probably makes it a better game.

 

[Mercutio01]

Quoted to point out that we are describing exactly the same thing in exactly the same way. However I consider the pain, and the fatigue from damage to get less over time. A five minute break and stopping to bandage your wounds and put ice on them will make them less serious than the immediate few seconds just after you picked them up. The cuts will stop bleeding.

It also includes scratch, as yours does. What those of us who don't like hits as damage are arguing against isn't this. If a hit is a hit then you aren't playing it that way. You are playing it as we are.

I'm glad to see we're reaching some sort of common ground. But cuts, while they will stop bleeding, won't go away for awhile. And they have a significant chance of opening again.

But if you hate mundane healing, why do you think that a cut that's both bandaged and clotted is as dangerous to the person with the cut as one freely bleeding while the user is moving harshly and keeping it open? If endurance factors in to hit points, why can't you catch your breath? Why are boxers stronger and harder to knock down coming out of the break between rounds than they are going in? There's more mundane healing.

Those are hit dice (or healing surges used outside of combat, if talking 4E). Those uses don't really bother me, unless they heal the character back to full. That same boxer does fight better after resting for a minute, but is still not fighting as hard as he was at the start of round one.

OK. We're going to do an experiment. I get to hit you in the face. Hard. You tell me how painful it is then. And how painful it is five minutes later. Given that I expect you to be fighting back tears immediately after the hit and to just find it really annoying five minutes later, I want to know exactly why you think taking a nap doesn't make it less serious.

Because tomorrow when I wake up, there's the significant chance that my head will still hurt. And if someone hits me again in the face, it's going to hurt worse than the hit I took from you the day before.

So come play 4e! Your damage still remains after a short rest. You have still expended healing surges, which measure the total amount of punishment you've suffered across the day. You need to expend your own internal resources to heal up - which is what healing surges are all about. Hit points are closer to a shock value. The jab a boxer takes at the end of the round is more likely to knock him to the floor than the one at the start of the next round even if they are the same strength. This is because his hit points have had time to heal (something you think doesn't happen) - and he's spent a healing surge to make this happen.

Hit dice are just healing surges with a new coat of paint and slightly lower numbers.

And as for instant restoration after a night's rest, I houserule that out in 4e myself. It does however do one good thing - puts hit points and spells onto the same recharge mechanic.

Edit: And your playing 3.5 "wrong" probably makes it a better game.

If hit points and healing surges were my only problems, I'd have been playing for a lot longer. I did play for a year. I am currently in a 4E PBP that's fun and interesting. I'm not a total 4E hater, but I will note that it feels significantly more like a wargame than the Pathfinder game I play in via PBP (but not more than the 3.5 XCrawl game I run as a PBP--but that' sby virtue of the setting).

 

[Neonchameleon]

I'm glad to see we're reaching some sort of common ground. But cuts, while they will stop bleeding, won't go away for awhile. And they have a significant chance of opening again.

Those are hit dice (or healing surges used outside of combat, if talking 4E). Those uses don't really bother me, unless they heal the character back to full. That same boxer does fight better after resting for a minute, but is still not fighting as hard as he was at the start of round one.

That he isn't. He's certainly healed. But as for fighting as hard, put the roar of the crowd behind him and he will almost certainly fight harder. Morale matters. The Warlord plays with morale.

As for the chance of cuts opening again, I take the assumption that being unbattered is the anomoly for most people who follow the lifestyle of an adventurer. It might be interesting to have the "fresh" condition that takes more than a few days to recover to and some care.

Because tomorrow when I wake up, there's the significant chance that my head will still hurt. And if someone hits me again in the face, it's going to hurt worse than the hit I took from you the day before.

So you've recovered some hit points but not all through overnight mundane healing The only reason for all hit points being recovered overnight is to put the fighter onto the same recovery track as the wizard which, from a gamist perspective is IMO necessary. Gygax de facto did it as well with a "no resting in the dungeon" rule enforced by wandering monsters showing up if you tried. I'm happy to move the healing as long as the spell recovery goes with it.

 

[Mercutio01]

That he isn't. He's certainly healed. But as for fighting as hard, put the roar of the crowd behind him and he will almost certainly fight harder. Morale matters. The Warlord plays with morale.

Yeah, I don't buy that. He might hit harder (a la the barbarian's rage), but he's more likely to be knocked out in round 2 than in round 1. The punishment builds over time.

The only reason for all hit points being recovered overnight is to put the fighter onto the same recovery track as the wizard which, from a gamist perspective is IMO necessary.

Yes, and I don't like that.

Gygax de facto did it as well with a "no resting in the dungeon" rule enforced by wandering monsters showing up if you tried. I'm happy to move the healing as long as the spell recovery goes with it.

Except that didn't really happen, at least not in the actual play of the game (and definitely not in any of the CRPGs ever put out!). I think this is one point we just won't come to an agreement on. I see that you like it from a gamist perspective. I suppose I don't like it, also from a gamist perspective.