Hit points & long rests: please consider?

[Neonchameleon]

Yeah, I don't buy that. He might hit harder (a la the barbarian's rage), but he's more likely to be knocked out in round 2 than in round 3. The punishment builds over time.

The punishment does build over time. Which is why both hit dice and healing surges are limited In 4e recovering from a knockdown will take four surges - you don't have too much left after that for most classes.

Except that didn't really happen, at least not in the actual play of the game (and definitely not in any of the CRPGs ever put out!). I think this is one point we just won't come to an agreement on. I see that you like it from a gamist perspective. I suppose I don't like it, also from a gamist perspective.

Which didn't happen? Resting in the dungeon? I can assure you I've been in a game in which it did. The DM and I both considered it worthy of a darwin award - three of the other PCs wondered why my PC insisted on setting traps worthy of a kobold. And wandering monsters in the dungeon - Old Geezer (Mike Mornard) on RPG.net has specifically stated that one reason was to prevent resting.

When talking about the way D&D was originally played, we're talking about a group of players for whom different damage dice by weapon was introduced to prevent them all buying iron spikes as those were the cheapest weapons. (Source again Mike Mornard.)

 

[Mercutio01]

Which didn't happen? Resting in the dungeon? I can assure you I've been in a game in which it did. The DM and I both considered it worthy of a darwin award - three of the other PCs wondered why my PC insisted on setting traps worthy of a kobold.

No, the enforcement of no sleeping in a dungeon. Characters would barricade the door or use "rope trick" or Leomund spells and rest anyway.

 

[Neonchameleon]

No, the enforcement of no sleeping in a dungeon. Characters would barricade the door or use "rope trick" or Leomund spells and rest anyway.

And then would find themselves in a siege situation, depending on the DM. And from all Mornard's anecdotes (and others) Gygax really was the sort who would ruin rest in the dungeon.

 

[Tovec]

So you've recovered some hit points but not all through overnight mundane healing The only reason for all hit points being recovered overnight is to put the fighter onto the same recovery track as the wizard which, from a gamist perspective is IMO necessary. Gygax de facto did it as well with a "no resting in the dungeon" rule enforced by wandering monsters showing up if you tried. I'm happy to move the healing as long as the spell recovery goes with it.

Or consider this. Wizard spell renewal is based on the semi-realistic HP recovery on a full nights rest.

Also, the no resting in a dungeon certainly does happen. I think there could quite possibly be a hard and fast rule that it does not work but far more than once it has happened in games I have been in.
Not having it happen actually makes a lot more sense than monsters just randomly showing up out of nowhere if you spend more than 30 minutes in a dungeon. Unless of course that dungeon has half the population of Maine or is the size of Nebraska.

Beyond that, consider that professional boxers are not trying to actually kill one another. They are trying to inflict enough pain that their opponent falls down. In terms of HP they could be attacking the enemy with either subdual or some sort of pain threshold, instead of trying to go for blood and kill them.

Just a random thought, nothing more to really say on the topic.

EDIT: I think that there should be a rule in 5e that says that you can only recoup HD or HP in a town or somewhere safe, warm, comfy, etc. Instead of just camping in the wilderness or a dungeon, as long as you do no get attacked.

 

[Mercutio01]

Or consider this. Wizard spell renewal is based on the semi-realistic HP recovery on a full nights rest.

You're the first person I've seen trying to argue that overnight recovery of all HP is semi-realistic.

Beyond that, consider that professional boxers are not trying to actually kill one another. They are trying to inflict enough pain that their opponent falls down. In terms of HP they could be attacking the enemy with either subdual or some sort of pain threshold, instead of trying to go for blood and kill them.

And yet there are physical wounds that appear (black eyes, broken noses, cuts, boxed ears) and boxers do die from time to time, and many of them suffer permanent even debilitating injuries. And none of them are ready to go for another fight the day after they finish one.

EDIT: I think that there should be a rule in 5e that says that you can only recoup HD or HP in a town or somewhere safe, warm, comfy, etc. Instead of just camping in the wilderness or a dungeon, as long as you do no get attacked.

That's [MENTION=87792]Neonchameleon[/MENTION]'s basic position, as long as wizard spell recovery is also tied to that same mechanic. I disagree with his reasoning for the latter, but not the former.

 

[Tovec]

You're the first person I've seen trying to argue that overnight recovery of all HP is semi-realistic.

I don't actually disagree with you on these points. I was just saying that I think magic refreshes on a night's sleep because HP does, not that HP does because that's when magic does.

And yet there are physical wounds that appear (black eyes, broken noses, cuts, boxed ears) and boxers do die from time to time, and many of them suffer permanent even debilitating injuries. And none of them are ready to go for another fight the day after they finish one.

Sadly yes this is true. And I do happen to agree that HP doesn't represent any aspect of fighting very well. My point is solely that in terms of DnD, they aren't actually trying to draw blood so that may pertain more to why boxers regaining stamina in a fight more resembles 4e's healing surges (and healing) than the HS and healing resemble reality.

That's @Neonchameleon 's basic position, as long as wizard spell recovery is also tied to that same mechanic. I disagree with his reasoning for the latter, but not the former.

The former being: That you should recover HP somewhere safe, etc?
And the latter being: That you shouldn't willy nilly as long as you aren't getting attacked?

I'm surprised you disagree at all with this last part. Are you saying that you agree that they should regain HP in safety, town, nice bed but disagree and say they should be able to recoup in the wilderness/dungeon too? I don't understand here.

 

[Mercutio01]

The former being: That you should recover HP somewhere safe, etc?
And the latter being: That you shouldn't willy nilly as long as you aren't getting attacked?

I'm surprised you disagree at all with this last part. Are you saying that you agree that they should regain HP in safety, town, nice bed but disagree and say they should be able to recoup in the wilderness/dungeon too? I don't understand here.

No. I mean that HP and spells should recover at the same rate. I do think I could go with a long rest in a safe place granting HP, but I don't think that spells should be forced into the same recovery time frame.

I'd still question if all HP came back naturally in one's night sleep, even if it's in a nice bed. I still see HP = abrasions/cuts/bruises, so full healing recovery in one night, no matter where, would break it for me, but I could see it as a bit faster. For example (just an example, not a deep thoughtful consideration), you heal and recover 1 HP per night as a standard, but in a comfortable bed you get HP = your current level.

 

[Lanefan]

No. I mean that HP and spells should recover at the same rate. I do think I could go with a long rest in a safe place granting HP, but I don't think that spells should be forced into the same recovery time frame.

Spells and hit points are vastly different things and absolutely do not need to be tied together in their recovery rates.

I'd still question if all HP came back naturally in one's night sleep, even if it's in a nice bed. I still see HP = abrasions/cuts/bruises, so full healing recovery in one night, no matter where, would break it for me, but I could see it as a bit faster. For example (just an example, not a deep thoughtful consideration), you heal and recover 1 HP per night as a standard, but in a comfortable bed you get HP = your current level.

This is where we so desperately need a body/fatigue hit point system.

Fatigue points you can get back a certain amount with a good night's rest - in my game it's 10% of your total f.p. rounding up. Body points are much slower to rest back, and more difficult to cure magically as well.

1e's method, where you only get 1 h.p. back per night, is a bit too slow. 4e's method, where you get 'em all back overnight, is way too fast. But - as I've said many a time here already - this is just custom made for one of these "dials" they keep talking about.

Lanefan

 

[Mishihari Lord]

I want to have games without a cleric required, but I don't want mechanics to replace that cleric, I want to play games in a different way than if the party had a cleric or lots of mundane overnight healing.

That's really insightful. Too bad XP is off

I agree that parties with different compositions should use different strategies and tactics. I'd prefer to tweak adventures for the party rather than make every composition play out the same.

Also, if the party can heal without the cleric the the cleric's kind of useless. I see that as a problem.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Spells and hit points are vastly different things and absolutely do not need to be tied together in their recovery rates.

Spells are spells. There is absolutely no in-world/simulationist reason the magic recovery system needs to be tied to the day rather than the phase of the moon, the sunspot cycle, or even the toss of a coin. The daily refresh of spells is a strictly arbitrary rate and the only reason at all for the daily cycle is tradition.

There are however good reasons to tie it to hit point refreshing. From a simulationist perspective given the amount the D&D novels I vaguely remember (it's been over a decade since I read one) talk about casters getting fatigued and it makes sense to tie this to bodily health and hit points.

From a narrativist perspective the episode is an effective model for pacing. Harmonising the recharge rates allows much neater plotting and pacing of episodes.

And from a gamist perspective harmonising the recharge rates makes sense to make balance much easier.

In short, no you don't need to. But the only good reason not to I can see is Tradition - and there are many good reasons from multiple perspectives to tie them together.