D&D 5E Hoard of the Dragon Queen - a solid D effort.

And like all scripted videogames, the NPCs ignore the fact that you and your friends stood there and watched soldiers being burned alive, possibly roasting marshmallows over their corpses. But after the dragon flies away its all, "You must help us! Again!"

If that's the way you'd play it as a DM, then I can't argue with you.

Me? I'd take into account how much other assistance the players had offered. If they helped but were just gassed when the dragon attacked, Nighthill would be thankful and understanding for their other support. If they generally ignored pleas for help, then I wouldn't have Governor Nighthill ask them for help in the morning. Depending on how it went down, I'd have him toss them out of the keep.

If I felt like the players wanted to continue playing the adventure, I'd have them approached by the monk's assistant (who is scripted to approach them), and have him ask for help.

Or, if things went completely off the rails, I might have them approached by a cultist who was left behind who wants help returning to the camp. When they get to the camp, they can enlist if they want.

But if your idea sounds better for your table, do that.

Thaumaturge.
 

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I really do wonder if we're all looking at the same adventure. In my copy, it provides multiple options to the DM if the PCs somehow manage to defeat him. One of them is that his minions drag him off to revive him. Another is that a different half-dragon shows up in the later episode. The outcome is explicitly not pre-ordained.

Ok, well that doesn't seem that bad then... Though I could see the other half-dragon bit coming off a little cheesy with my players... I'd probably just build a second in command different enough but still around the same power level.
 

If that's the way you'd play it as a DM, then I can't argue with you.

I don't think any DM (outside of an Encounters table) would play it that way... but its the way the book says to do it. I would've thought without the DMG being out, there would have been a lot of sidebars and DM notes in the book, assisting with player choices and DM adjudications.
 

I don't think any DM (outside of an Encounters table) would play it that way... but its the way the book says to do it. I would've thought without the DMG being out, there would have been a lot of sidebars and DM notes in the book, assisting with player choices and DM adjudications.

So then it doesn't appear to be a problem.

Groups that need a level of impermanence (Encounters) are making a trade. They get less verisimilitude in exchange for a game that meets at a time/place convenient for them.

Like you said, everyone else can adapt to the situation on the ground, so to speak.

I think having possible outcomes for the PCs going off of the rails gets problematic. It seems they would have needed to add significant page count (How does Nighthill react if the PCs refuse to help? How does Greenest make it through winter with no mill? Does vicious mockery count as a PC interfering with the duel? )or just assume the DMs of the world could work with it. They chose the latter; some would have preferred the former.

(I actually disagree that the book says to do it that way, but that's neither here nor there.)

Thaumaturge.
 

OOC:
If you can die before saving in a video game intro, then yes. It's like that.

I think the purpose of the encounter is to be a tense "we are so out of our league" moment. But the PCs can die. Their actions count. If they ignore it, the dragon kills a bunch of people and then gets bored. If they aren't smart and safe about how they drive it off, they die. It's just the dragon doesn't unleash its full might.

Thaumaturge.

I admit that the concept is good, but you'll note that the OP didn't criticize the concept of the module, but it's implementation. Starting a campaign with a tense "we are so out of our league" moment is a good thing that I highly recommend and have been recommending on these boards for like the past 10 years. But it's not the general concept in question here that is the problem, but the implementation. The particular implementation here kludges two scenarios together in a way that is lesser than both, and which misses the critical details of doing either well.

Those two scenarios are:

a) "We are so out of our league"

and

b) "It's a stalemate."

In "We are so out of our league", the PC's don't dare face the threat. It's way out of their league and if it unleashes its full might, the PC's are toast. There are three critical aspects of this scenario. First, that the threat is so unimaginably overwhelming that it is absolutely clear to everyone at the table that it is suicide to 'stand and fight'. For example, you are first level and its clearly a colossal elder wrym dragon, with a CR 20+ above anything you could actually face. Second, that it isn't paying attention to them, and there is virtually nothing the PC's could do to draw its attention on them specifically. The threat could be mindless, or is observed at a distance, or generally believably has better things to do and that is conveyed to the players in a meaningful fashion. And thirdly, and most importantly, that despite the fact that the threat is beyond the means of the players to deal with, there is still something meaningful and exciting for them to do. That means that for any "We are so out of our league" scenario, the PCs need to be able to acquire new meaningful goals in the context. So, those could be, "Hey, we can't fight that thing, but at least we can rescue the orphans from the burning building.", or "Hey, we can't fight that thing, but at least we can loot the abandoned shops.", or "Hey, we can't fight that thing, but at least we need to escape the firestorm that is consuming the city.", or "Hey, we can't fight that thing, but look - minions!" In "We are so out of our league", you have what is the equivalent of a disaster movie going on. "Ok, we can't stop a tsunami, volcanic explosion, or Godzilla, but at least we have something heroic to do at the moment, if only escape with our lives."

But this scenario doesn't play out cleanly like that. Instead, because the PC's are expected to take the initiative in driving away Godzilla and getting Godzilla's attention, what we have is more like the scenario, "It's a Stalemate!"

In "It's a Stalemate", the intention is to introduce a reoccurring NPC villain with the PC's playing the role of foils so that each will then have a vendetta against the other. There are two critical features of "It's a Stalemate". First is that both sides can place the other in check, so that neither side can continue. One example is that the PC's place the villain in position which it must retreat because otherwise the NPC will be overwhelmed, but conversely where the PC's are unable to pursue either because they'd be overwhelmed or because the NPC simply has a mode of travel they don't. The reverse is also possible, but harder to pull off consistently, with the PC's being able to successfully retreat while the NPC dare not follow. The second and harder feature to pull off is that the end result must be both sides manage a partial victory, succeed within a limited goal, and logically had no better strategy available to them. And therein is the problem with presenting the dragon encounter as, "It's a stalemate." Because unless the PC's have provably survived the worst the Dragon can dish out and given as good as they've taken, why should the Dragon allow himself to be driven off?

The examples of how this has actually played out justify the concerns with the encounter design. If it is "We are so out of our league", attacking the dragon is the "wrong" move. Yet there is nothing for the characters to do if they misunderstand the intentions and don't attack the dragon and no impact on how the script is suppose to work. Choosing to treat the scenario as "We are so out of our league" is rational, but within the story doesn't "fail forward" gracefully. But conversely, while having a dragon that can just fly away ought to make, "It's a stalemate!" a viable scenario, the actual implementation is that the dragon flies away "just because" rather than because it was left by the PC's with no choice.

For, "We're so out of our league", a bigger dragon and more fallout is required. Plenty of scenarios around a great wyrm attacking a town can be imagined. The fun is in dealing with the indirect results of the dragon's attack - dealing with looting cultists, calming panicking mobs, assisting the innocent to safely, putting out fires, rescuing the injured, and generally just escaping the catastrophe. For, "It's a stalemate", I'd probably build the scenario around the PC's rallying local defenses and becoming the focal point for more widespread resistance. I'd give the PC's a 'stronghold' that they could defend and a group of innocents to be the bulwark for, with NPC allies that could be rallied to be in a support role - the retired fighter, the town cleric, the city hedge mage, the dwarf merchant. By fortifying the stronghold, say a fortified temple, and dealing with a series of scenarios as the Dragon tries different ways of overcoming defenses, the PC's eventually thwart and slow the dragon's depredations while surviving the best it can deliver. Eventually, the 'cavalry arrives' in the form of reinforcements, and between that and the PC's, the dragon decides to leave with a partial victory. This is a bit trickier to pull off because there is the possibility of the PC's not counter-punching the way you imagine and you end up in a full failure scenario, but doable. You also have to guard against the PC's choosing to be passive and excusing themselves from the story. That is to say, if the NPC's in the stronghold our your quest givers, or if the justification for the PC's being on the quest by someone is solely "Thanks to your heroism", you better have a fall back position.

Well scripted encounters seem like they arose naturally. Poorly scripted encounters have quite likely results where utterly illogical things are happening because 'plot'.
 

I admit that the concept is good, but you'll note that the OP didn't criticize the concept of the module, but it's implementation.

:uhoh:

Um... I wouldn't note that because I didn't really read the OP. :blush:

I kinda skimmed and then jumped in.

Fortunately, I was replying to someone else's comments. :)

The examples of how this has actually played out justify the concerns with the encounter design. If it is "We are so out of our league", attacking the dragon is the "wrong" move. Yet there is nothing for the characters to do if they misunderstand the intentions and don't attack the dragon and no impact on how the script is suppose to work. Choosing to treat the scenario as "We are so out of our league" is rational, but within the story doesn't "fail forward" gracefully. But conversely, while having a dragon that can just fly away ought to make, "It's a stalemate!" a viable scenario, the actual implementation is that the dragon flies away "just because" rather than because it was left by the PC's with no choice.

I can see what you're saying. For me the dragon's motivations are spelled out clearly enough that him leaving after a crit/some damage doesn't feel like "just because". It feels like a dragon. I've read for years about dragons, especially chromatic ones, being capricious allies who only look out for themselves. To me, this encounter sells that. He has no interest in throwing down for Greenest. He doesn't care.

The PCs don't have to get him to a stalemate position; he has put himself there. The PCs just have to give him an excuse.

For, "We're so out of our league", a bigger dragon and more fallout is required. Plenty of scenarios around a great wyrm attacking a town can be imagined. The fun is in dealing with the indirect results of the dragon's attack - dealing with looting cultists, calming panicking mobs, assisting the innocent to safely, putting out fires, rescuing the injured, and generally just escaping the catastrophe. For, "It's a stalemate", I'd probably build the scenario around the PC's rallying local defenses and becoming the focal point for more widespread resistance. I'd give the PC's a 'stronghold' that they could defend and a group of innocents to be the bulwark for, with NPC allies that could be rallied to be in a support role - the retired fighter, the town cleric, the city hedge mage, the dwarf merchant. By fortifying the stronghold, say a fortified temple, and dealing with a series of scenarios as the Dragon tries different ways of overcoming defenses, the PC's eventually thwart and slow the dragon's depredations while surviving the best it can deliver. Eventually, the 'cavalry arrives' in the form of reinforcements, and between that and the PC's, the dragon decides to leave with a partial victory. This is a bit trickier to pull off because there is the possibility of the PC's not counter-punching the way you imagine and you end up in a full failure scenario, but doable. You also have to guard against the PC's choosing to be passive and excusing themselves from the story. That is to say, if the NPC's in the stronghold our your quest givers, or if the justification for the PC's being on the quest by someone is solely "Thanks to your heroism", you better have a fall back position.

This is, essentially, how I plan on playing most of the first episode. I'll probably lean more heavily on the idea that they are gathering forces and such, because you make some good points.

And your scenario sounds really cool. :)

Well scripted encounters seem like they arose naturally. Poorly scripted encounters have quite likely results where utterly illogical things are happening because 'plot'.

I agree. I just disagree that the dragon leaves "because plot", I suppose. For instance, if one of the PCs figures out a way to make things personal with the blue dragon (presumably because the PC is crazy and ready for death), things, at my table, change. If things get personal, the dragon becomes vested in the fight. If he's vested, he is going to paint the town blue. And red. And the situation becomes the "run away from Godzilla" scenario you mentioned above.

And there are enough hooks to give me a connection to episode 2, that I have no problems reducing Greenest to ash, if I think the PCs interacted with scenario in such a way as to make that the likely outcome.

Thaumaturge.
 

Ok, well that doesn't seem that bad then... Though I could see the other half-dragon bit coming off a little cheesy with my players... I'd probably just build a second in command different enough but still around the same power level.

Or he could be the guys brother/sister and is seeking revenge against the PCs. It almost makes it seem like the PCs actions actually did have some meaning in the world.
 

Or he could be the guys brother/sister and is seeking revenge against the PCs. It almost makes it seem like the PCs actions actually did have some meaning in the world.

Actually it just occurred to me that I would probably make the replacement his mate... though I don't actually have the adventure, I'm trying to decide whether to buy it or not and it's kind of difficult given the stark contrast in the reviews I've read about it.
 

It was also designed to have some railroad elements because it was designed for Adventure League play, and thus it had to make sure all players, regardless of what group they were part of, all had the same shared experiences. I don't think it's fair to criticize the game on those grounds because of that reason.

Sure it's fair to criticize - unless it's made very clear (in or on the product) that it's designed for the Adventure League style of play. Then you know what you're buying and should alter your expectations accordingly.
 

One point that isn't being discussed much: the quality of the maps on HotDQ. (I've wanted to make some comments about using "Blando" as a descriptor, but that's not a fair criticism.) They all seem to have elaborate border-artwork, but the rooms themselves are all completely blando and empty; that makes them barely better than my own work for the purposes of using a VTT, because I'll hide everything but the rooms from my players anyway. Blando is obviously a competent artist, but I'm honestly majorly disappointed with the quality of these.

Also, all those spelling mistakes on the Sword Coast map. Damn.

Basically, if Rise of Tiamat and followups are also Encounters based, the WOTC adventures are going to drive the 3PP adventure market through the roof.
To be fair, this adventure was produced by Kobold Press. Lost Mine of Phandelver, which is awesome, was produced by WotC.

Incidentally, the next adventure path for 5E is supposed to be Elder Elemental Evil, and to be written by Rich Baker, who also wrote Lost Mine of Phandelver.
 

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