D&D 5E Hoard of the Dragon Queen - a solid D effort.

[Haffrung]

When we talk of railroads and scripts, it's worth considering the different forms they come in.

There's the railroad of the linear series of adventures, where you complete one chapter and then move on the next. Clear out the steading of the hill giant chiefs, and it's on to the glacial rift of the frost giant jarl. That model is hard to get away from if you want to publish a mega-adventure that spans many levels. You can't have the PCs discover the shrine of the kuo-toa before they infiltrate the steading of the hill giant chief. So self-contained locations or chapters have linear connections.

The other kind of scripting is, in my opinion, more egregious. It's where the outcomes to particular encounters are scripted. A dragon attacks and scares the beejesus out of the PCs but it doesn't kill them, and it always escapes. A villain steals an artifact that the PCs have recovered, and they can't stop him. An evil priest they encounter in chapter 1 must be kept alive for the climax of chapter 5. In these cases, agencies is denied the PCs on a basic level. And furthermore, rather than the script aiding a novice GM by spelling things out for him, this sort of scripting contains potential landmines that could blow up if the PCs go off-script and kill the wrong PC, and the novice DM has to substantially rewrite the subsequent chapters to account for the change.

We can recognize the necessity of the former while objecting to the denial of agency and potential for train-wrecks in the latter.

I think WotC would be well-served, in future, to make different adventures for Encounters than they plan to sell as actual adventures. It's possible to make a great Encounters adventure and it's possible to make a great home play adventure, but I don't know how feasible it is to make an adventure that's good for both without compromising all the things that can make either one GREAT.

Seconded. By releasing adventures intended to be used in Encounters play, while emulating the Pathfinder model of Paizo, WotC are not playing to the strengths of the game system they just published. Ironically, they did the same thing with 4E by kicking it off with adventures better suited to AD&D (or 5E). There's a weird misalignment between the systems they design and adventures they publish to support them.

 

[MerricB]

Merric is absolutely correct here ... at least until that second paragraph. D&D Encounters requires a certain play style: everyone MUST be on episode 2 the next week.

Although that was true of the 4E version of Encounters, the program has changed significantly over the past year and a bit. Since Murder in Baldur's Gate, each table can go at its own pace, and Hoard is the most explicit example of this so far: the season isn't even a set number of weeks!

The notes in the Encounters version of Hoard state...

Episode 1 will likely take 5-6 sessions
Episode 2 will likely take 2-3 sessions
Episode 3 will likely take 8-9 sessions

As it happens, Episode 1 is likely to take my table only 3 sessions. We're planning to just keep going through the full adventure after Episode 3, so it isn't bothering us so much!

Now, note that Encounters is only episodes 1-3. After that, even if the authors were influenced by needing to write for Encounters in the first three episodes, they can get back to standard adventure writing.

Cheers!

 

[aramis erak]

I'm so glad I'm not the only person who was severely disappointed by this adventure path.

I mean, right there in the first episode, there are two "supposed to lose" boss fights.

Here's how the first one played out at my table:

DM: The dragon is attacking. Some guards are up on the roof to defend. The governor wants you to help. Do you?
Most Players: **** no, we're going to die.
One player: Sure, I'll do it.
Most Players: Are you insane? Don't do it!
One player: I shoot it with an arrow!
DM: Okay, the guards attack the dragon and do no damage. The dragon attacks them [not you, for some stupid reason] and a bunch of them are disintegrated.
Player: I shoot it again!
DM: It flies away [and still doesn't disintegrate you, for some stupid reason].

Great roleplaying, eh?

Lame players, more like.

Mine...
DM: "The dragon is lazily coming in, seems to be looking for big targets."
Players, all at once: "I find cover on the parapets and ready my..." (insert ranged weapon)
Lots of held actions waiting for it to come in to range. The Tiefling fighter lobs a shot that narrowly misses while at 220 feet out. The Drow, realizing that his maximum range is going to be 10' shy, shinnies down the outside of the wall, and takes up aim.
The Tiefling Warlock puts some challenging remarks from dead under it.
It comes in, kills a few NPCs.
Tiefling Fighter asks if he can organize a warning for the attack... makes a really rather impressive skill check. I apply a DM-1 on the next dragon attack.
Raiders start chanting from across the town, in draconic, "Lightning! Lightning! Lightning!"
Warlock puts eldritch bolts on dragon.
Warlock, while waiting for dragon to grow a pair (more correctly, for him to recharge) hexes the dragon.
Warlock uses a spell to make scary gold dragon noises from under the dragon. Dragon manages to fail the save (thanks to disadvantage on Wis), decides there are no interesting targets, comes in. He gets hit with a couple arrows, some eldritch bolts, and decides, "This hurts too much, I'm out of here." Dragon screams.

DM failure to play the Monsters as NPC's isn't a failure of the module.
Players cowering certainly isn't heroic. (Note that the tiefling warlock DID hide in the tower door).

 

[eryndel]

Although I appreciate the effort of the OP; this critical review must have been a labor of love. He has a number of fair points and there are numerous areas where the options given in the module don't really make a whole lot of sense. I chalk most of that up to the Encounters aspect of the adventure. For me, the adventure gave me enough to build a game around, even if I don't use all the boxed text verbatim.

I'm also not convinced by the railroad arguments made by other posters. The adventure was designed to cater to a number of different audiences. The Cyanwrath (half-dragon baddie in Ep. 1) encounter was brought up. Although it's likely a PC will be defeated by him, there are a number of potential scenarios that could transpire as described in the game:

• No one steps forward, nameless human guard fights and dies
• Player wins, minions grab half-dragon to try and save him so he can return.
• Player wins and kills Cyanwrath outright
• Players all pile in - grand melee ensues

In one of those situations, there's advice that if Cyanwrath falls, try to save him for Ep. 3. For Organized Play, this is kinda necessary because when you're running a group through Ep 3, you really don't know what the outcome of Ep 1 was. If I were to run it in my home game, I feel I have a lot more ability to tailor it (replace the Ep 3 half dragon with his mate, as suggested above, or just remove him from the game).

That said, I think some of the railroady concerns are really from the DM's end. In a case where the module states that situation X happens no matter what the PCs do... as long as the party isn't aware of all the possible outcomes, I can usually run it where the PCs aren't aware of this. Even if the adventure says the Adult Blue dragon will run away, I can run the scene where the party gets involved and actually do drive off the dragon (or they can hide, and I can highlight some other valiant hero outshines them... that can be fun too).

All said, I thought Ep 1 and several Episodes towards the end were pretty well done, although much of the middle felt a little lackluster. That's on a read through... still haven't run my group through it yet.

My characters are in Phandelin and once they finish up the start box adventure, I think I'm going to start out the Hoard of the Dragon Queen as the dragon and cultists are attacking Phandelin instead of Greenist. It would keep from having to explain why they traveled so far to Greenist and since they will find cultists later in Thundertree, they already know they're around.

XP'ed... this is excellent. I've been brainstorming ways to tie this in with my current LMoP game and I will steal this. Have the dragon and cultists raid Phandalin upon their return from Wave Echo and maybe even kill off some of the NPCs they developed bonds with. Then they can track the cultists to the Mere and Carnath Roadhouse in Episode 5. They may be a little high level (higher than level 6 after leaving the Mere), but will be pretty close. Thanks!

 

[Derren]

Lame players, more like.

Deus Ex Machina, more like.

Because at this point the PCs have total plot immunity as the dragon is scripted to not kill them, even if that is the proper response to an attack (the dragon has been strafing the town for a while and the PCs do not put up any more damage than the NPCs the dragon would have killed all day long so why flee now?).

 

[Thaumaturge]

Because at this point the PCs have total plot immunity as the dragon is scripted to not kill them

Not true.

Please see my previous post where I quoted the adventure. It talks about the dragon killing the PCs, which is not quite "total plot immunity". The dragon can, and will, kill foolhardy PCs.

It says so. In the adventure.

Thaumaturge.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Sure it's fair to criticize - unless it's made very clear (in or on the product) that it's designed for the Adventure League style of play. Then you know what you're buying and should alter your expectations accordingly.

Seeing as how it's what they promoted heavily for their AL play, I'd say they were pretty clear that it was designed as such, and not so much just a stand alone "Play from Home" adventure.

 

[DaveMage]

Seeing as how it's what they promoted heavily for their AL play, I'd say they were pretty clear that it was designed as such, and not so much just a stand alone "Play from Home" adventure.

Really?

There was absolutely no such promotion that I heard. The only reason I know about it is from reading threads like this on EN World - and that was after the product was out. It needs to be on the product itself, not in "promotions" that people may or may not witness.

 

[doctorhook]

Lame players, more like.

...

The Drow, realizing that his maximum range is going to be 10' shy, shinnies down the outside of the wall, and takes up aim.

10' is a pittance; would his arrow simply drop harmlessly to the ground if it crossed the maximum-range threshold by 10'? Whether or not the DM allows this character to make his attack, this kind of play strikes me as particularly lame.

Seeing as how it's what they promoted heavily for their AL play, I'd say they were pretty clear that it was designed as such, and not so much just a stand alone "Play from Home" adventure.

Organized Play aside, the fact is that this adventure is being sold for private, at-home use, though it appears to be poorly suited for it.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Because it looks like we are getting vastly different reviews on the same dang product. Some folks say its a railroad, others that it's a sandbox!

A few small dungeons does not a sandbox make. One of them only has one real choice in it. One is a manor house, so not a lot of choice. The other two have a couple of possible routes through them -- but does not change the fact that the arc of the entire adventure is essentially linear and the PCs are required to spend much of the adventure following the bad guys around.

If the adventure were seeded with options for more hooks and information that might allow investigation to lead to different points of the adventure, allow the PCs to get ahead of the bad guys, or even reach the final location after bypassing some earlier locations, I might credit it as a sandbox.

But as written -- nope, pretty much linear.

IMO, a good adventure, not just a good dungeon, should allow through good play or luck for the players to make choices about what elements, in what order, they tackle much of the adventure. It doesn't have to be the whole adventure, but if you flow chart the major elements, you should strive for a couple of good paths. For my own personal model of this, check out The Desolation of Oakhurst, available here at EN World -- although the PCs can follow a linear arc through the adventure, there is an included flowchart that supports multiple means of progressing through the adventure.