Originally posted by Fallstorm:
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thorbardin wrote:
quote from the adventure:"Cyanwrath is the likely winner of this match, whether he's fighting Sergeant Markguth or a character. When his foe drops, he strikes one more time; the last blow kills Markguth or inflicts one death roll on a character."
So the game designers knew the likely outcome. Why would they do this? To set up a nemesis for the players to want to kill later. To make it a little more believable that their leader is more than a 1st level grunt, even if they players are only 1st level. To make being a hero a little harder than killing a bag of rats. To make Cyanwrath a badass villain. And perhaps on a meta level, for people to remark how hard this adventure series is.
All of the supposed things you state the designers may have been trying to do with Cyanwrath is possible without building an encounter that is designed to kill PCs. Many story arcs and adventures have reoccurring villains in them and those villains (while a legitimate threat) are not guaranteed to flat-out kill player characters.
thorbardin wrote:
What does the DM do in this situation... if he rolls lots of damage on a hit in front of the player.1. The DM follows the dice and kills the character. The player rolls up a new one, and the other characters swear vengeance on his death. "He was a good man, snatched too soon, his whole life ahead of him." I'd start the new character at level 2, because everyone should level at the end of this encounter. No biggy, the player has lost a character he's invested one or two sessions in.
or
2. The DM fudges the dice, or says Cyanwrath holds his blade at the last moment, not severing the jugular... and almost kills the character.. knock off an additional failed death save. The blow was vicious and would've killed anyone else, now he has the ugly scar to remind him of his loss. Cyanwrath spits into the face of the fallen character in contempt of an easy challenge and stalks off. Vengeance! His friends rush to his aid as his lifeblood pumps out on the soggy ground.
I have issues with point number one. I have no problem with a PC dying due to poor decisions being made, or because there was a string of unfortutitous roles happening with the dice, etc. But for a PC to die because he has been placed in a situation that is designed from the jump to kill him and an adventure that pressures the character to take this path (being the hero and accepting Cyanwrath’s challenge in order to spare a bunch of innocent people) I have a problem with. Also, it is an inconsistent argument to state that DND 5E is based on 3 legs (combat, role-playing, and exploration) and then say losing a character after 1-2 sessions is no big deal, because if you do value role-playing then changing characters shouldn’t be like changing a tire. Here we had a Player who made up a character. While we are min-maxers and tactical minded gamers we do put thought into our characters and this guy had come up with a concept and background for the character. He was a half-orc fighter, the result of a noble woman who was accosted by an orc tribe. His noble family shunned him and didn’t claim him, but the character himself was deeply pious and honorable and strove to be a paladin. He fell short of the glory so to speak so he was just a highly lawful and honorable half-orc fighter trying to overcome the prejudices his family and some segments of society had against him. To lose such a character not through the characters wanting to fight his way through every situation, not through a string of bad rolls, not through poor decisions on the players part, but because the adventure pits him up against nigh unwinnable odds is poor encounter design.
Point number 2 seems more acceptable and still does the job of showing that the cult leader is not a grunt and inspires characters to try and pursue this villain later. It does so without needlessly killing a PC.
thorbardin wrote:
I think the expectation gap for players ("what the hell is going on?") is if their DM never puts the players up against challenges that could outright kill them, and then that "everything must be fair" DM runs this adventure verbatim. It's a brutal wake up call.Similar conversations have been about the deadly Adult Blue Dragon. The advice given in the adventure text is for the dragon to not immediately engaged the PCs, to rather show the dragon's awesome power by killing lots of guards (1d4 at a time). The subtext is to see if the players can think up a strategy to effectively help without being idiots and standing out in the open on the battlements with all the other noobs who are being slaughtered. If the DM shows the danger beforehand, the players should be smart enough to not openly engage the dragon and still help to drive it off.
Players do and should have an expectation of the game and DM being fair when designing an encounter. I mean, yes a DM could for example throw a group of 1st level PCs up against a Pit Fiend but what is the point. In all honestly the Adult Blue Dragon is one of the reasons my group is having problems accepting the believability of this adventure. Don’t get me wrong we appreciate the fact that the Blue Dragon is not designed to kill PCs outright and if he takes a certain amount of damage (I think around 30 pts) he just flies away as he doesn’t have enough interest in the keep but to me that just seems bogus. To me it would make more sense to 1) not have a monster in the party in the first place that the characters could not win against in a hard fought fight. I mean the Bug Bear if I recall in Lost Mines of Phandelvar was scary and we had a PC go down but it was a fair fight because you had 5 PCs going up against a foe that was a few levels higher than them, but in a straight up combat there is no way for 1st level PCs to stop that blue dragon so I question why a dragon had to be rampaging the keep vs a more manageable and level appropriate monster. Secondly, it seems lame to me saying the dragon just loses interest and flies away. What would have made more sense to me (and some of my fellow players) was to have the dragon only have a few hit points left (say 50 or so) from where the keeps ballista and such had been striking him and archer arrows (the archers of course would all have died valiantly trying to defend the keep) and the PCs come and finish the dragon off by doing the remaining hit points of damage. The PCs would get the same amount of XP they would get for driving off the dragon as they shouldn’t get the same XP they would for killing an actual dragon. Yet, to me this second approach does the exact same thing as the first except is more plausible and gives the PCs an actual sense of accomplishment.
thorbardin wrote:
Last comment re: being railroaded in this situation... I have to politely disagree. yes, there are many pointers for the PCs accepting the challenge (the quest giving mayor would appreciate it, the PCs are SUPPOSED to be the heroes of the story), but if the DM foreshadows the power and strength of this guy before the combat, just like the dragon above, then the player knows what he's actually accepting, and can say no. The adventure continues if they do say no, which isn't a hallmark of a railroaded encounter. If the player doesn't know he's going up against a CR 4 enemy and just says "Yes"... well then the DM hasnt communicated the threat sufficiently. If the DM has, and the player still thinks he can take him, it's a noble (and perhaps stupid) death.
After the brave death of our Half-orc fighter (Paladin wannabe) our group discussed this encounter. Our DM was kind enough to let us read some of the stuff around the challenge and I’m sorry dude this adventure did pretty much railroad you into accepting the challenge for all practical purposes. I mean, what good aligned PC is going to let a battered down guard accept the challenge in his/her place or not take up the challenge and allow the keep to be raised. Heck, from what the DM showed us in the adventure afterwards if the PC decides not to accept this challenge they lose all support from the mayor/keep and are on their own going forward. So, while it does present an option of not accepting the challenge that option is really a bogus one and de facto railroads one of the PCs into accepting this death trap and that is what it is a PC death trap. I mean, by this logic the mafia gives people choices to either pay up or we break your legs but is that really a choice?
Thank you for your feedback however I do think you offered good tip (via the solution of non-lethal option) under point number 2 of how to keep the PCs alive while not downgrading Cyanwrath's villiany. Unfortunately this will not bring our half-orc back but it can serve as a guide for future DMs who utilize this adventure.