hobgoblin and ECL

[Monkey Boy]

Nadaka,

Your example is fine at 20 lvl and but doesn't work art low levels were most of the game is played.

I think Hobgobs are on par with Dwarves power wise and should be treate as LA +0.

 

[Mark Plemmons]

You should consider using the hobgoblin subraces from the Player's Guide to the Sovereign Lands (preview here). They're a major race in the D&D: Kingdoms of Kalamar campaign setting, and all LA +0.

Here's the main two most like the MM hobgoblins (there are five total subraces):

Kargi Hobgoblin Racial Traits
• +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma. Kargi have developed a hardy physique due to their harsh environment, but they lack development in the mental areas.
• Medium: Kargi hobgoblins receive no special size-related bonuses or penalties.
• Kargi speed is 30 feet.
• Darkvision: Kargi hobgoblins can see in the dark at a distance of up to 60 feet. This type of vision is mostly colorless (showing only shades of black, white and gray), and needs no light to function.
• +4 racial bonus to all Fortitude saving throws. Growing up in a climate of rampant disease has made the Kargi especially resistant to diseases and poison.
• +2 racial bonus to all Survival checks when in a tropical climate. The Kargi have learned to adapt to their harsh environment, and can now use it to thrive.
• Automatic Languages: Hobgoblin and Goblin. Bonus Languages: Svimohzish, Merchant’s Tongue, Brandobian, and Orcish.
• Favored Class: Cleric. When deciding whether a Kargi hobgoblin suffers an XP penalty for multiclassing, his cleric class does not apply.

Krangi Hobgoblin Racial Traits
• +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma. Krangi are impressive physical specimens, but they are deficient in many mental areas.
• Medium: Krangi receive no special size-related bonuses or penalties.
• Krangi speed is 30 feet.
• Darkvision: Krangi hobgoblins can see in the dark at a distance of up to 60 feet. This type of vision is mostly colorless (showing only shades of black, white and gray), and needs no light to function.
• Weapon Proficiency: Krangi receive Armor Proficiency feats (Light and Medium), Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the dagger, javelin, longsword, short sword, shortspear and crossbow, and the Shield Proficiency feat as bonus feats. During their childhood, all Krangi are instructed in the ways of war. They are taught the six weapons of the Blacksoul, how to wear armor and use shields, and are expected to be proficient in their use.
• +2 racial bonus to Listen and Spot checks. Years of fighting have honed the Krangi senses and made them exceptionally alert creatures.
• +4 racial bonus to Hide checks. Years of hunting and being hunted made hobgoblins adept at not being seen.
• Automatic Languages: Hobgoblin and Goblin. Bonus Languages Merchant’s Tongue, Orcish, Kalamaran and Brandobian.
• Favored Class: Fighter. When deciding whether a Krangi hobgoblin suffers an XP penalty for multiclassing, his fighter class does not apply.

 

[delericho]

Hobgoblins are a bit better than most of the PHB races, which is enough to give them an LA+1. They're at the low end of the LA+1, but not excessively so.

The comparison with Dwarves (and Warforged) is a bit unfair, IMO, since both those races are right on the top end of the acceptable PC races. In fact, I would argue that both races are actually too good to be LA+0, and should probably be stripped down some.

To make Hobgoblins LA+0, I suspect all you would need to do is drop the +2 Dex. (Not the +2 Con, since the Dex modifier combined with the bonus to Move Silently makes them just a bit too good as Rogues.) They'll still be better than Half-orcs, but then, who isn't?

To make Hobgoblins fit a bit better at LA+1, just add a few more racial features. Unfortunately, I'm not entirely sure what would be the best way to go here.

 

[Cam Banks]

Seems to me that the KoK hobgoblins take a -2 hit to three ability scores more as a means of balancing out the extra stuff they get on top of what the MM hobgoblin gets, if anything. A +4 bonus to all Fortitude saving throws? Good gravy. That's Great Fortitude, twice, on top of a +2 Con bonus.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

Agreed with the OP, they do seem weak for LA+1. Albeit a touch strong for LA+0.

I did the same as Kishin for my last campaign - adjusted them to LA+0.

Again I play with 32 point buy, so it's a little less of a difference than at 25.

I did tone them down slightly, player picked either -2 Wis or -2 Int (reflecting caste). There were also some RP issues associated with them, although that doesn't count.

IMO it felt about right - played up to 9th level with one in the party and he didn't seem overly powerful.

My personal +0 LA bugbear is wood elves - they seem a bit out of whack to me. It's a half orc + elf with the charisma penalty removed.

 

[el-remmen]

Since when have hobgoblins been extra dextrous?

This is a latest edition thing right? Because I don't remember them being describe that way in 1E or 2E.

 

[Nadaka]

Nadaka,

Your example is fine at 20 lvl and but doesn't work art low levels were most of the game is played.

I think Hobgobs are on par with Dwarves power wise and should be treate as LA +0.

A hobgoblin at LA +1 is kinda weak at very low levels (<5). then it eventually balances out. Even at low levels it isnt bad. Take a look at a hobgoblin rogue 3 vs a human rogue 4. The human has 1 extra feat, and quite a bit more skill points, and depending on con, 0 to 4 extra HP. They have the same reflex save, the hobgoblin has a better fort save, the hob has a better attack bonus with ranged and (possibly)finess weapons and can match his skill bonus with dex based skills. In addition he has darkvision and a hide 4 points higher than the human. The human may be more flexible with the extra feat and skill points, but the hobgoblin is significantly better at stealth and an equal in core dex based rogue skills. Within just a few more levels, the hobs con bonus hp will surpass the average 3.5 hp + con mod of even the hardiest of humans and significantly make up for his reduced number of skill points.

Another thing to consider is that when using point buy, a hob can more easilly achieve those high scores and save a large number of points on point buy. It costs a hob only 20 points to get an 18 con and 18 dex vs a humans 32 points. Or even when rolling a hob can afford to reprioritize his ability score placement for added efficiency due to the specific bonuses.

Are hobs a strong LA +1, no. They might be a little weak for LA +1. But they are strong enough that without the LA, they make arguably better choices for rogue than halflings and definately better choice for wizard than elves, its a bit of a stretch but they also match the dwarf and human capabilities in the combat role. Since they are better than many core races at thier supposed best class, and the equal of many more, I would say that yes, they need the LA to be balanced.

 

[Klaus]

I say the hobgoblin should be LA+0. It's racial thing is that they get two bonuses and no penalty to scores.

The elf gets +2 Dex, -2 Con, but also gets immunity to sleep, +2 vs. enchantment spells, four free Martial Weapon Proficiencies, +2 to three very important skills (Spot, Search and Listen), low-light vision, a 4-hour rest cycle and an "auto-search" mode for secret doors.

The hobgoblin gets +4 Con over the elf, darkvision (let's saythis equals low-light vision and the immunity to sleep) and +4 to one skill (let's say this equals the +2 to three skills, even though it doesn't). The extra Con doesn't equal the "Auto-Search", 4 Weapon Proficiencies and +2 against an entire school of magic.

Oh, and wizard is far from the best class for elves. That honor belongs to cleric. The best race for a wizard is dwarf.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

If you play with ECL buyoff, the net result is 3k exp. It makes most of the wimpy ECL 1 races more attractive and fair.

 

[Hunter In Darkness]

im with klaus there too weak for a +1 LA ...just my thought but there no better really then elves or gnomes or dwarfs and then thes the npc reaction to think about most hobgoblines are not loved