hobgoblin and ECL

[Squire James]

As written, hobgoblins are on the low-end of LA +1. If I allowed them in my campaign at all (depends on setting), I'd nix the Dex bonus, apply -2 to Charisma and make them an LA +0 race. A strong ability bonus, a weak ability penalty, Darkvision, and "goblin blood" makes them better than half-orcs but not as good as dwarves. In other words, a fairly balanced race.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

While they are weak for a +1 LA they probably didn't want them to be more powerful than the core races like Elves and Dwarves. Hence the +1 LA.

Olaf the Stout

 

[Hunter In Darkness]

While they are weak for a +1 LA they probably didn't want them to be more powerful than the core races like Elves and Dwarves. Hence the +1 LA.

sorry thats not good enuff.........thats like saying fireball needs to be a higher level bc its more used then lighting bolt..its not better but folks might use it more so lets make it a 4th level spell just to be safe .....

 

[Michael Silverbane]

I think they'd be fine as a +0 LA race.

They'd be even better if the +2 to Dex was removed and some sort of situational bonus was put in its place.

Later
silver

 

[Cosmic.Justice]

Instead of comparing the Hobgoblin to a Dwarf, clearly the best of the +0 races, compare Hobgoblins to Half-Orcs, Half-Elves, & Gnomes. Hobgoblins clearly belong in the +1 LA category. A total of +4 to ability scores at no penalty, not to mention all around ability scores that are fantastic on any class such as Dexterity & Constitution, is well worth the +1 LA. Tieflings and Aassimar are in the same boat, with Tieflings actually having less of an overall bonus to ability scores with a few minor additions.

If you really have an issue with the Hobgoblin being slightly weaker than those two (and again, mathematically speaking, from a powergaming perspective, they're better than Tieflings for a number of roles), give Hobgoblins a few minor bonuses to set them up more on par with the other +1 LA races. If you think they should be LA+0, then they need to lose the imbalanced ability bonuses.

 

[Klaus]

I didn't compare to the dwarf, I compared to the elf.

Half-orcs and half-elves are underpowered, to say the least (I already took a stab at remaking the half-orc over at the Fiery Dragon website). Let's how the gnome matches up:

Gnomes get -2 Str, +2 Con, are Small (the only penalty for being Small is the one-step reduction on weapon damage, so being Small isn't much of a penalty), have speed 20 (this is a penalty), Low-light vision, +1 on illusion DC, +2 on saves against an entire school of magic, Weapon Familiarity (not as good as a full Weapon Proficiency, but it's something), bonus to attack FOUR very common foes (kobolds, goblins, hobgoblins and bugbears, just to stay core), very good AC bonus against an entire type of creatures, +2 on a very useful skill (Listen), +2 on a rarely used skill (Alchemy), one spell-like ability and any average gnome also gets three more spell-like abilities.

Yeah, the gnome also wins by a landslide.

 

[Aus_Snow]

I think they are between LA +0.5 and LA +1. Which means they should either be toughened or nerfed, to place cleanly at +0 or +1.

So yeah, I agree that they should be redesigned.

 

[Cosmic.Justice]

Gnomes get -2 Str, +2 Con, are Small (the only penalty for being Small is the one-step reduction on weapon damage, so being Small isn't much of a penalty),

Small also applies a penalty to all grapple checks, reduces carrying capacity, and lowers weapon damage significantly.

Have speed 20 (this is a penalty), Low-light vision,

+1 on illusion DC,

Which is only useful if they choose a class that routinely uses Illusion magic.

+2 on saves against an entire school of magic, Weapon Familiarity (not as good as a full Weapon Proficiency, but it's something), bonus to attack FOUR very common foes (kobolds, goblins, hobgoblins and bugbears, just to stay core), very good AC bonus against an entire type of creatures,

Weapon familarity is like the bonus DC to Illusion, and the others are reliant on DM fiat since being targeted by illusion spells or fighting those enemies may happen often, once in a while, or never.

+2 on a very useful skill (Listen), +2 on a rarely used skill (Alchemy), one spell-like ability and any average gnome also gets three more spell-like abilities.

Alchemy may as well not be there, the cantrips are nifty little gimmicks at low level, and Listen is a nice bonus that may or may not be useful depending on the characters specialization & class as the game progresses.

Yeah, the gnome also wins by a landslide.

I cannot agree with that assessment. Ability score bonuses are much more significant than the minor bonuses given to Gnomes due to the fact that a player can specifically design and maximize the powers of ability score bonuses in a much more efficient and long term fashion than specific, DM reliant abilities.

Honestly, if Hobgoblins were LA+0, what intelligent, maximizing player would not make them their first choice for a spellcaster, Ranger, Rogue, Barbarian, or any number of other similar character archetypes? The bonuses ability scores give are much more pertinent and have a significant impact on the character throughout the entire game.

You would be hard pressed to find a Gnome that consistently makes use of all of his myriad minor abilities on a regular or even intermittent basis, due to the differences in character specialization and environment, whereas you would be hard pressed to find a Hobgoblin that did not consistently gain signifciant benefit from his ability bonuses.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

sorry thats not good enuff.........thats like saying fireball needs to be a higher level bc its more used then lighting bolt..its not better but folks might use it more so lets make it a 4th level spell just to be safe .....

I see it more as the Dwarf and Elf have been around as character race options since the beginning (heck they once were character class options!). Hobgoblin are the new kids on the block so they have to earn their stripes first.

I think a better analogy is if they came up with an area of effect spell that was the same level as fireball but not quite as good in some way. Unfortunately WotC seem to sway the other way in regards to spells. Quite often the new spells are more powerful than some of the PHB ones.

Wait am I strengthening or weakening my argument?

Olaf the Stout

 

[Hunter In Darkness]

olaf your right on the spells ...Aus_Snow i dont think they need to be nurfed but if its all that big give them a -2 to cha or such not that big a deal but yeah elves and dwarfs win big time even without that