Hobgoblin Skills Errata?

[Ogrork the Mighty]

I think the Hobgoblin entry in the MM 3.5 is wrong. A 1st-lvl Warrior should have 8 skill points (2+Int, x4), but I only count 6.

Hide +3 (4R+1 Dex-2 armour)
Listen +2 (1R-1 Wis+2 feat*)
Move Silently +3 (0R+1 Dex+4 racial-2 armour)
Spot +2 (1R-1 Wis+2 feat*)

*Alertness
-2 armour check penalty for studded leather and light shield
+4 racial bonus on Move Silently

Am I missing something?

 

[Shadeus]

Just a guess, they aren't counting the shield's armor check penalty. Although its assumed they are wearing their armor all the time, they are not assumed to have a shield readied all the time. I'm guessing there's your missing 2 ranks.

 

[MerakSpielman]

Skill point and feat errors are relatively common.

 

[Darkness]

Skill point and feat errors are relatively common.

So common, in fact, that I don't use a creature out of a book without checking its skills first. (I use a spreadsheet I've built for this purpose, so it only takes a minute or two.)
Assuming I know in advance I'm going to use this creature, anyway. (Or have used the creature, and thus checked its skills, previously.)

I should note that I write* up all creatures I'm going to use in stat-block format for ease of use; checking the skills is merely an extra step, not the main point.
(*Well, I enter the data; yet another spreadsheet I've built does the actual work. What can I say - I like using Excel to make my work go faster, with a smaller chance for errors. )

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Just a guess, they aren't counting the shield's armor check penalty. Although its assumed they are wearing their armor all the time, they are not assumed to have a shield readied all the time. I'm guessing there's your missing 2 ranks.

I've counted that. The studded leather is -1 and the shield is -1, for a total of -2.

Normally I couldn't care less if the skills add up or not but when I'm modding a monster (adding class levels in this case) then I always check the skills and that's when I usually find errors.

 

[Targos]

Actually all of those skills are cross-class for a warrior. It appears this was overlooked for hide. (Its not possible to have 4 ranks in a crossclass skill at first level.) That would account for the discrepency. 4 skill points in hide (crossclass) = 2 ranks. The correct modifier should be a total of +1.

 

[Scharlata]

Actually all of those skills are cross-class for a warrior. It appears this was overlooked for hide. (Its not possible to have 4 ranks in a crossclass skill at first level.) That would account for the discrepency. 4 skill points in hide (crossclass) = 2 ranks. The correct modifier should be a total of +1.

Hi!

Supporting Targos here.

If WotC would've forgotten the shield penalty, as Shadeus suggests, Move Silently would've got an entry of +4 (0 ranks, +1 Dex, -1 studded leather, +4 racial). So it seems that someone thought all monsters - even those who substitute the One Hit Dice for a class level - gain all skills mentioned in their respective description as Class Skills.

Kind regards and happy easter!

 

[Darkness]

Supporting Targos here.

No need to - he's pretty obviously right.

Right, I think if you're statting lots of non-classed monsters, making this mistake when statting a classed one can happen quite easily.
Now I'm curious - are most of the other classed creatures in the MM correct?

Goblin
Hide +5 (2 ranks, +1 Dex, +4 size, -2 armor) = 4 skill pts.
Listen +2 (1 rank, -1 Wis, +2 Alertness) = 2 skill pts.
MS +5 (2 ranks, +1 Dex, +4 race, -2 armor) = 4 skill pts.
Ride +4 (+1 Dex, +4 race) (This one should be +5, as armor doesn't apply.)
Spot +2 (1 rank, -1 Wis, +2 Alertness) = 2 skill pts.

Total: 12 skill points. (Goblins should have 4*2 = 8.) Looks like a Hide/MS mistake again.


Dwarf
Appraise should be +0 (+2 metal/stone), not just +2.
Craft skills are ok.
Listen +2 (2 ranks, -1 Wis) = 4 skill pts. Also, should be +1.
Spot +2 See Listen, above.

Thus, skill points are correct, but Listen/Spot should be +1.


Duergar
Same thing with Appraise as dwarf.
Craft skills are ok.
Listen +3 (2 ranks, -1 Wis, +1 race) = 4 skill pts. Also, should be +2.
MS -4 (+4 race, -7 armor) Should be -3.
Spot +2 (2 ranks, -1 Wis, +1 race) = 4 skill pts.

Listen and MS are wrong.

 

[Nifft]

Clearly Goblin Warriors have taken the special Goblinoid Racial Substitution level for Warrior, which grants them Hide and Move Silently as class skills.

Haven't you guys read Complete Fodder?

-- N

 

[Targos]

No need to - he's pretty obviously right.

Right, I think if you're statting lots of non-classed monsters, making this mistake when statting a classed one can happen quite easily.
Now I'm curious - are most of the other classed creatures in the MM correct?

Goblin
Hide +5 (2 ranks, +1 Dex, +4 size, -2 armor) = 4 skill pts.
Listen +2 (1 rank, -1 Wis, +2 Alertness) = 2 skill pts.
MS +5 (2 ranks, +1 Dex, +4 race, -2 armor) = 4 skill pts.
Ride +4 (+1 Dex, +4 race) (This one should be +5, as armor doesn't apply.)
Spot +2 (1 rank, -1 Wis, +2 Alertness) = 2 skill pts.

Total: 12 skill points. (Goblins should have 4*2 = 8.) Looks like a Hide/MS mistake again.


Dwarf
Appraise should be +0 (+2 metal/stone), not just +2.
Craft skills are ok.
Listen +2 (2 ranks, -1 Wis) = 4 skill pts. Also, should be +1.
Spot +2 See Listen, above.

Thus, skill points are correct, but Listen/Spot should be +1.


Duergar
Same thing with Appraise as dwarf.
Craft skills are ok.
Listen +3 (2 ranks, -1 Wis, +1 race) = 4 skill pts. Also, should be +2.
MS -4 (+4 race, -7 armor) Should be -3.
Spot +2 (2 ranks, -1 Wis, +1 race) = 4 skill pts.

Listen and MS are wrong.

The MM goblins are wearing leather armor (no armor check penalty) resulting in one rank (2 skill points) each for hide & move silently so that correctly adds up to 8 skill points. If the dwarf/duergar had alertness their skills would make a little more sense.