Hold Person vs Boots of Flying

[Grog]

if you are saying that moving with a fly spell is a mental action, like controlling a spell, this would mean that it would take a standard action and you would not be able to do anything else.

Except that, under the description of the Fly spell, it specifically says that it only takes as much concentration as walking.

 

[LokiDR]

Lets look here.

Since the spell is an Enchantment (Mind-ffecting) [compulsion] spell.

Definition of Compulsion

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=compulsion

com·pul·sion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (km-plshn)
n.

The act of compelling.
The state of being compelled.

An irresistible impulse to act, regardless of the rationality of the motivation: “The compulsion to protect the powerful from the discomfort of public disclosure feeds further abuse and neglect” (Boston Globe).
An act or acts performed in response to such an impulse.

So you are told to not move, you believe it with your entire being.

So Rationaly, motivationally, whatever else you want. you do not want to move

Technically Flying is a Move Action, it falls under the move action.
Can you fly in a free action?

If it was purely a mental action then you would get to fly as a free action as it would not take up any movement to control your movement.

EpRock, you are the funniest guy I have ever read on these boards. Didn't I just say NOT to mix up the english definition of compulsion with the D&D definition? D&D allows for a "compulsion" to be circumvented, where english doesn't. A compulsion spell can change just the portion of your mind that deals with control of your physical body. Note, this has nothing to do with your astral body.

This going around and around is getting silly.

 

[LokiDR]

You are saying that controlling a fly spell is a "mental" action.

if you are saying that moving with a fly spell is a mental action, like controlling a spell, this would mean that it would take a standard action and you would not be able to do anything else.

Controlling spells after they are cast takes a standard action.

"You can move and dismiss a spell"
(PHB: 121)

More narrow viewpoints and failure recognize the larger rule context.

What you wanted to say was (from the SRD)

Concentration: The spell lasts as long as the character concentrates on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.

The problem is that concentration is not maintaining the spell, only required to use the spell. Maintain spells takes a standard action, control takes whatever action is listed in the spell. Take flaming sphere "The sphere moves as long as the character actively directs it (a move-equivalent action for the character); "

"Controlling spells after they are cast takes a standard action. " is false.

 

[Artoomis]

From the SRD:

Compulsion: The spell forces the subject to act in some manner or changes the way her mind works. Some spells determine the subject's actions (or the effects on the subject), some allow the character to determine the subject's actions when the character casts the spell, and others give the character ongoing control over the subject.

The D&D definition of Compulsion. This doesn't really help the debate one way or the other, I think.

 

[LokiDR]

From the SRD:



The D&D definition of Compulsion. This doesn't really help the debate one way or the other, I think.

Definition of the compulsion sub-school of enchantment spells.

You can construe the definition of a compulsion spell to be changing thoughts of the person hit. But that is not what it says. For pete's sake, it is only a classification, and a vague one at that. All it really means is the character is not open to interpret things, as they are with charm. I'll agree it doesn't help much.

Hey, if we argue this enough, can we make it into your list of problem rules?

 

[EPRock]

Compulsion: The spell forces the subject to act in some manner or changes the way her mind works.

Why, compulsion is straight forward.

Your mind is now broken, you are taken over by the borg. You are assimilated, whatever... Your mind now works differently and the moving aspect of your mind does not work.

- Essentially means that you cannot move under your own free will, no matter what.

You are trying to do the same thing as "I control my arm to move and swing my sword". Because moving my arm is a mental action.
I can walk because it is a mental action. I release control of my bladder because it is a mental action.

 

[Bauglir]

Ah, just like fly.

Not just like fly in fact. Fly requires that the target expend a move action to take use of the spell. Fly empowers the target to fly, however the spell does not move them; they move themself. (see below)

There doesn't need to be any special allowances for telekinesis or teleport because they can be "purely mental actions". The fact that a mental action has a physical result is not the point.

I see your point, but that same argument could be applied to walking normally; it's a purely mental action. The fact that that mental action has a physical result (ie walking) is not relevant.

The spell disallows physical movement. To me whether that movement is magically or muscularly driven is irrelevant, to others it is not. What if, for example someone had expeditious retreat cast on me? That gives me a bonus chunk of magical movement every round - could a held person use that bonus magical movement? If not what makes the magical movement generated by fly 'better' than that generated by expeditious retreat, for these purposes?

I'm not saying right out that flying while held is impossible within the rules. What I AM saying is that it's not black and white, and that there are many valid arguments for both sides, depending largely on your point of view. I personally don't consider it legal within my own interpretation. The big IMO in my first post on this thread still applies.

When someone is flying as per the spell, they are not moving themselves, they are controlling a spell that is moving them. Therefore, Hold spells would not interefere with that.

If someone casts fly on me and I fly around, am I moving with the aid of the spell or is the spell moving me? IMO the former, although that does not mean the latter is wrong; it's just not how I see it.

 

[LokiDR]

Why, compulsion is straight forward.

Your mind is now broken, you are taken over by the borg. You are assimilated, whatever... Your mind now works differently and the moving aspect of your mind does not work.

- Essentially means that you cannot move under your own free will, no matter what.

You are trying to do the same thing as "I control my arm to move and swing my sword". Because moving my arm is a mental action.
I can walk because it is a mental action. I release control of my bladder because it is a mental action.

Your straw-man arguement has failed before and will now.

We have been making the specific distinction between control of you physical body directly and movement of your body by mental action. You lose control of your body with hold person. That's it. You may still make mental actions.

You are too caught up on "held" to see that moving your legs by thinking is fundamentally different than controling a spell by thinking. Hold person paralizes you. No motor function. Forces you control by means other than your body still work fine. No spell-like ability is prevented. You could command dominated people under your control to pick you up and move you. You are controling your movement, just not by means of your body.

You had it right when you said "Your mind now works differently and the moving aspect of your mind does not work." Now think about using abilities other than that portion of your mind, such as the part that controls spells. Does that make more sense?

 

[LokiDR]

Not just like fly in fact. Fly requires that the target expend a move action to take use of the spell. Fly empowers the target to fly, however the spell does not move them; they move themself. (see below)

Fly empowers them to move. Now, do they fly by physical means or mental means? Hold person makes a clear distinction. Hold person does not prevent everything that would result in movement of the held character.

I see your point, but that same argument could be applied to walking normally; it's a purely mental action. The fact that that mental action has a physical result (ie walking) is not relevant.

The spell disallows physical movement. To me whether that movement is magically or muscularly driven is irrelevant, to others it is not. What if, for example someone had expeditious retreat cast on me? That gives me a bonus chunk of magical movement every round - could a held person use that bonus magical movement? If not what makes the magical movement generated by fly 'better' than that generated by expeditious retreat, for these purposes?

I'm not saying right out that flying while held is impossible within the rules. What I AM saying is that it's not black and white, and that there are many valid arguments for both sides, depending largely on your point of view. I personally don't consider it legal within my own interpretation. The big IMO in my first post on this thread still applies.

I think the rules are clear. Perhaps not black and white, but the answer is in there.

Physical movement could either mean they are 1) prevented from controling their body, or it could mean they are 2) prevented from moving by any means.

If #2 is case, falling is a catch 22. Stop you wings, you will move. If you keep your wings moving, you are moving. The case has another problem in that Hold Person allows specifically mental actions. Couldn't those be used to move you? Shouldn't that have a note on it that you can not use mental actions to move?

But that is not the way hold person is written. Those holes do not exist in theory #1. Compulsion is irrelevant, since compulsion just means the person has no choice. Physical movement means physically controling your body directly, hence the difference between physical actions and mental actions.

If someone casts fly on me and I fly around, am I moving with the aid of the spell or is the spell moving me? IMO the former, although that does not mean the latter is wrong; it's just not how I see it.

There are other spells that give you wings. Fly does not do that. From all appearences (except that 90' vs 60' thing) you just then and therefore move.

Does hold person prevent you from contemplating movement?
Does hold person prevent control of spells?
Does fly require you to move your body?
Does the fly spell give you an additional physical capability, such as wings?
Does hold person stop the fly spell?

I answer no right down the line.

Don't get me wrong. I don't thing this is as simple as page some one has not seen. There are good reasons for a person to rule in the opposite way. But I don't see those rulings as interpretations of rules, but instead as house rules. I would accept a DM calling it that way, but not if he said that is offical rule. If I judge a Living game, I will use this same mentality. When I judge my own game, I might see it the other way around. I don't mean to call any person arguing against my position as "stupid" only as misunderstanding the larger interaction between spells within the rules.

 

[Belbarrus]

To summarize the debate so far and my (and others, but speaking for myself) side of it:

Those against, moving with a Fly when Held: the spell immoblizes the target with a magical compulsion for the target to not voluntarily move.

Those for, moving with a Fly spell while held: The Hold person spell states that "mental actions" can still be performed. Moving with the Fly spell is a mental action and therefore you can still move while under the influence of this spell.

So the whole debate comes down to this: Is moving with the Fly spell a physical movement or only a mental action?

There are several spells or actions specifically state "mental" control:
Levitate spell: "You can mentally direct the recipient..."
Evil Clerics commanding undead: "...undead creature is under the mental control of the evil cleric."
Status spell: ...allows him to mentally monitor..."

Fly spell does not state that moving with it is a "mental action". For example, the description does not say, "The recipient can mentally direct the path of his flight."

The rulebook also does not have any entry detailing what a "mental action" is or what sort of limitation is imposed on an action that "requires as much concentration as walking". The closest thing that I could find is "Concentrating to Maintain a spell." (p. 125 pf PHB). But this indicates that Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action and anything that could stop you from casting a spell also stops you from concentrating on one.

Frankly I think this is a matter of having to prove that moving with a Fly spell is a mental action, as opposed to being a "move" action. If you were at Point A (in 3 dimensional space, lets say) and you moved to Point B, then you "moved" and the Hold spell prevents you from doing this voluntarily. Whether you got there because you walked, climbed, swam or flew is irrevalant. Getting there by other means is acceptable. You can cast a silent, still teleport as a mental action, because the spell is not preventing you from casting a mental spell (For example, the action you are taking is a spell casting action, not a move action). If the *end result* of the spell relocates you, you still have not moved yourself on your own accord (for example, Hold does not stop someone else teleporting you either). If someone carried you this is fine, because you are not moving on your own accord. If you fell (because you could not flap wings for example), this is fine because you are not moving voluntarily. You can levitate (because the spell specifically states that you can control the levitation as a mental action).

As I said before, moving with a Fly spell being a "mental action" is interpretation. There is no rule (unless someone can point out the page and which rulebook) that confirms this. Moving with a Fly spell is still considered "moving".

Also, the idea that the "enchanment Compulsion"spell alters the targets thinking has been frequently critized. Meanwhile the defense is usually, "the spell stops the brain sending messages to the body". But the rules do NOT state that anywhere, not even remotely.

I think it comes down to a house rules thing. Those that say that Fly-ing is moving and therefore prohibited when held and those that state that you are not moving with a Fly spell you are "mentally" controlling the effects of a spell which, indirectly, cause you to move about.