Hold Person vs Boots of Flying

[Bauglir]

When you fall you are not choosing to move.
When you flap your wings you are.

When bob carries you away you are not choosing to move.
When you attempt to move off using the fly spell you are.

While under the effects of the hold person you may not conciously choose to move in any way. That's my take on it.

Teleport is another can of worms tbh. I suppose it depends whether you consider it to be moving or just relocation. Similarly, are you moving yourself with a teleport or are you casting a spell and letting it move you, and does it matter? What if you cast a silent still summon monster spell and then commanded it mentally (using say a Rary's Telepathic Bond) to carry you to safety? Would you be capable of issuing that command, KNOWING that the ultimate effect will be you moving?

 

[Nareau]

PH. Page 214, Hold Person: "The subject freezes in place, standing helpless."
DMG Page 79: "A paralyzed or held character cannot move, speak, or take any physical action. He is rooted to the spot, frozen and helpless."
DMG Page 85: "Held characters are subject to enchantments that make them unable to move. They are helpless."

<Sarcasm>
Seems pretty clear to me:
Joe is taking a nap. Frank casts Hold Person on him. Joe gets very cold, and finds himself somehow standing up. To make matters worse, he finds that he has sprouted roots from his feet, and they are digging into the ground.

You guys need to read the rules a lot more literally.
</Sarcasm>

Sure, Hold Person changes the way your mind works. It prevents you from willfully moving parts of your body. I Googled "What causes paralysis," and got this quote comes from www.christopherreeve.org*
"Paralysis occurs when communication between the brain and spinal cord fails."

Spider

*Yes, I do see the irony.

 

[Murrdox]

Flying, on the other hand, is notably similar to walking - it requires the same amount of concentration, it requires "moving" (prohibited by the held condition), and the speed is affected by the encumbrance of armor.

If Flying were "purely mental"... why does the encumbrance of armor affect the speed?

-Hyp.

Hey, way to go Hyper!

I'm going to flip-flop on this issue. I hadn't noticed the part in the Fly description where it mentioned your movement rate was reduced in heavy or medium armor.

The only explanation for this reduced movement rate is that Fly requires "some" movment... you must have to at least lean, or point your arms in the direction you want to fly, etc, etc. These movements take "as much concentration as walking".

Thus, I'm going to flip on this one, and go wih Hyper. If you're Flying, and then Held, you drop.

 

[jasper]

gentlemen how about a compromise.
He is held and slowly descents to the ground like the end of fly spell.
In other words he trying to fly but is being prevented by hold person.

 

[Bauglir]

 

[Belbarrus]

Hypersmurf: "allow a Held creature who had cast Levitate (or who had a Silent, Stilled Levitate prepared) to manipulate the target mentally -"

This is correct, the Levitate spell specifically states:

"The character can mentally direct the recipient to move up or down as much as 20 feet each round"

Thanks Hypersmurf. Your means of communicating is more elegant and refined than mine The whole argument was that you could move with a Fly spell as a "mental action". All I wanted was someone to prove this, using the rulebook, instead of their own interpretation of the rules. Like the example above: the Levitate spell, as per the rulebook, *does* say that the character "mentally" directs the recipient.

Unfortunately being accused of "bending the rules", "making things up", "being a troll', having "flawed logic", etc was getting me flustered to the point where I couldnt type a proper debate.

 

[LokiDR]

Fly gives the target a flying speed of 90. The flying creature is under all the standard encumbrance rules for movement. Hold Person keeps a target from using their movement, hence no flying while held.

Hold only stops certain types of actions. We should all agree that you could pick yourself up with a telekinisis spell-like ability while held, as that only requires mental actions. The question now is whether fly requires continuous physical actions or not.

 

[LokiDR]

Flying, on the other hand, is notably similar to walking - it requires the same amount of concentration, it requires "moving" (prohibited by the held condition), and the speed is affected by the encumbrance of armor.

If Flying were "purely mental"... why does the encumbrance of armor affect the speed?

-Hyp.

It is similar to walking, but not the same thing.

Where do you get that the encumbrance of armor is slowing you down? It doesn't say that, only that you slow down when wearing certain types of armor. The line needs to be there for balance purposes, but that is not the same as saying the "encumbrance of armor affect the speed".

There are other forms of encumbrance. The weight classes of armor corresponds to the load classes. A character in heavy armor carrying a light load has the same encumbrance as a character in light armor carrying a heavy load.

Why aren't some sort of somatic components described? The only action noted is concentration. Could a jelly be made to fly? What if I was tied into a fedal position?

Encumbrance itself is not listed as a limit to the fly spell, only certain types of armor. Since it doesn't say how that armor limits movement, we have to interpret. No other forms of encumbrance are listed that exist, so I have to assume it is not the fact that armor is encumbering. What else could it be? Just a quirk of the spell for balance purposes.

 

[Artoomis]

Hold only stops certain types of actions. We should all agree that you could pick yourself up with a telekinisis spell-like ability while held, as that only requires mental actions. The question now is whether fly requires continuous physical actions or not.

Argument why you can Fly while Held:

"Using the fly spell requires as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally."

Since the spell description says nothing about needing physical effort to fly (only as much concentration as walking), flying under a Fly spell is, by inference, a purely mental activity.

"The subject of a fly spell can charge but not run."

If flying was like walking, then you should be able to run, but you can't. Again, this implies a Fly spell's mobility is mental.

"But fly is a transmutation... " (see below) - Ah, but so is Telekinesis, and Telekinesis is purely mental (requires concentraion) and lets you even manipulate "as if with one hand."

"But fly reduces movement based upon wearing armor..." (see below). On the other hand, though, it does not reduce movement for encumbrance. This conflicts with itself as reasoning for why Fly is like walking. Fly logically should either slow down for encumbrance, or should not slow down for armor. I really can't come up with a plausible explanation for why armor slows you down but overall encumbrance does not... well, other than game balance, perhaps.

Also, the Fly does not require free hands and/or legs for flying - at least the spell description certainly dfoes not say so. I think teh spell, as written, allows you to Fly even if you hands and feet are bound.

Finally, it's likely(?) that the reason that Fly is phrased differently that Telekinesis is because fly does not require concentration to use - only about as much mental effort as walking.

Argument why you cannot Fly when Held:

"Transmutation
Transmutation spells change the properties of some creature, thing, or condition. A transmutation usually changes only one property at a time, but it can be any property."

This implies that your properties are changed so you can fly .

"The spell’s subject can fly with a speed of 90 feet (60 feet if the creature wears medium or heavy armor). "

The reduction is movement rate for armor implies that restriction of your movement caused by armor affects flying - similar to it would if you were walking. This implies flying requires some physical effort, not puerly mental.

"Using the fly spell requires as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally."

This implies that you are using as much effort as you would when walking.

Conclusion

As I started to type the above I was about to change my mind and state that Hold trumped Fly. However, after examining both sides of the argument, I have to say I think Hold does not trump Fly.

 

[LokiDR]

Unfortunately being accused of "bending the rules", "making things up", "being a troll', having "flawed logic", etc was getting me flustered to the point where I couldnt type a proper debate.

I will take this personally, since I made most of those comments.

The key line for me was "Remember the book with the words and pictures that lists the rules on how to play the game?" that lead to me comparing you to a troll, as I consider that a direct insult. If you did not intend an insult, I misunderstood. Up untill that point, I was picking apart your argument (logic, stretching) which you should expect in any sort of debate.

If you want to take this to an administrator, I am up for that, but I don't want to waste any else's time in this forum with this any more.