Hold Person vs Boots of Flying
- Thread starter Ender_3
- Start date
Artoomis said:
You forgot one point of contention: that hold is a compulsion not to move, hence any thoughts of moving would be stopped.
The reason this false is because Hold Person specifically allows any mental actions you want to take, such as spell-like abilites to teleport or telekinisis.
Bauglir said:
Wrong. You have that backwards. A creature with wings can flap them in order to hover and remain stationary in the air. If they don't, they are choosing to fall - to move in a downward direction. Since it is completely within the creature's power to prevent it, for that particular creature, falling is a choice.
So therefore, by the logic that says the Hold spell mentally commands a creature not to move, a flying creature that failed its save against a Hold would have to flap its wings and hover in order to remain exactly where it was when the spell took effect. Doing anything else, including ceasing flapping its wings and falling, would be moving - which, according to your interpretation of the spell, the creature has been compelled not to do.
Re: Concentration
If a spell exsisted that prevented your mind from concentrating on walking, it would have no effect on movement by the fly spell, since the use of the fly spell is NOT the same as walking. They only require the same amount of concentration. This would also be true of a spell that preventing your mind from comprehending the fact you had legs.
Even a feebleminded person can still walk.
Hold Person, however, does not prevent you from concentrating, so this is tangental to point, however nifty those spells sound.
EPRock said:
If a spell exsisted that prevented your mind from concentrating on walking, it would have no effect on movement by the fly spell, since the use of the fly spell is NOT the same as walking. They only require the same amount of concentration. This would also be true of a spell that preventing your mind from comprehending the fact you had legs.
Even a feebleminded person can still walk.
Hold Person, however, does not prevent you from concentrating, so this is tangental to point, however nifty those spells sound.
Bauglir
First Post
err no it doesn't.
"He can, however, execute purely mental actions (such as casting a spell with no components)."
I don't see any special allowances for telekinesis or teleport there. (personally I'd allow them, but that is a house rule, as the spell does not specify what is and isn't allowed. My reasoning being that the mind is focussed on manipulating the spell, and the movement of the target is caused by the spell and not directly by the caster, if you know what I mean.. Fly on the other hand specifically requires an attempt on the part of the holdee to move, and as such is blocked by the hold spell)
What you're describing is a spell that compels someone to hold their position, which is entirely different from a spell that compels them not to move.
A hold person stops someone from moving themself, it does not compel them to resist external forces attempting to move them. This is made clear in the winged creature passage in the spell description.
Bauglir said:
You are mixing up the english definition of compulsion and the D&D definition of compulsion.
There doesn't need to be any special allowances for telekinesis or teleport because they can be "purely mental actions". The fact that a mental action has a physical result is not the point.
Hold Person does not say "they cannot contemplate moving", it instead alters their mind so they can not control their body. Since control of the spell is not the same as controling the body, they are separate actions.
You are trying to apply "The subject freezes in place, standing helpless. The subject is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any physical actions, even speech" to apply to spells controled. It does not. Spells, except where noted, are mental actions, specifically allowed by Hold Person
Lets look here.
Since the spell is an Enchantment (Mind-ffecting) [compulsion] spell.
Definition of Compulsion
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=compulsion
com·pul·sion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (km-plshn)
n.
The act of compelling.
The state of being compelled.
An irresistible impulse to act, regardless of the rationality of the motivation: “The compulsion to protect the powerful from the discomfort of public disclosure feeds further abuse and neglect” (Boston Globe).
An act or acts performed in response to such an impulse.
So you are told to not move, you believe it with your entire being.
So Rationaly, motivationally, whatever else you want. you do not want to move
Technically Flying is a Move Action, it falls under the move action.
Can you fly in a free action?
If it was purely a mental action then you would get to fly as a free action as it would not take up any movement to control your movement.
Since the spell is an Enchantment (Mind-ffecting) [compulsion] spell.
Definition of Compulsion
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=compulsion
com·pul·sion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (km-plshn)
n.
The act of compelling.
The state of being compelled.
An irresistible impulse to act, regardless of the rationality of the motivation: “The compulsion to protect the powerful from the discomfort of public disclosure feeds further abuse and neglect” (Boston Globe).
An act or acts performed in response to such an impulse.
So you are told to not move, you believe it with your entire being.
So Rationaly, motivationally, whatever else you want. you do not want to move
Technically Flying is a Move Action, it falls under the move action.
Can you fly in a free action?
If it was purely a mental action then you would get to fly as a free action as it would not take up any movement to control your movement.
Bauglir said:
Yes, and that is evidence against your interpretation of the spell. If it worked the way you said it did, the winged creature would have to flap its wings in order to remain in place.
When someone is flying as per the spell, they are not moving themselves, they are controlling a spell that is moving them. Therefore, Hold spells would not interefere with that.
You are saying that controlling a fly spell is a "mental" action.
if you are saying that moving with a fly spell is a mental action, like controlling a spell, this would mean that it would take a standard action and you would not be able to do anything else.
Controlling spells after they are cast takes a standard action.
"You can move and dismiss a spell"
(PHB: 121)
if you are saying that moving with a fly spell is a mental action, like controlling a spell, this would mean that it would take a standard action and you would not be able to do anything else.
Controlling spells after they are cast takes a standard action.
"You can move and dismiss a spell"
(PHB: 121)
