Hold Person vs Boots of Flying

[Jeremy E Grenemyer]

Originally posted by Belbarrus:
Three instances that say that a Held person *cannot* move. Actual quotes from the rulebooks themselves.

Three instances, mind, that say nothing on the subject of performing mental actions while Held.

Originally posted by Belbarrus:
Please give me ONE quote from the rulebook that confirms that moving with the fly spell is a mental action, as opposed to your * interpretation* or opinion of the rules. If you can quote the rule that moving with the fly spell is indeed a mental action, then the debate is over.

:sigh:

Asking for a “rule” is kind of silly, since the only source of information on the subject is the spell itself.

Thus, what you should be asking for is an example from the spell description that says flying is a purely mental action.

Since I am at work, IDHTPHBIFOM, but I believe the following is more or less a correct quote.

From the PHB, page 206(7?):
“Using the fly spell requires as much concentration as walking. So the subject of the spell can still attack or cast spells normally.”

And there you have it. Concentration is all that is needed. If this isn’t a purely mental activity, I don’t know what is.

The only remaining argument is that Hold Person is a Compulsion, therefore it (somehow) keeps you from concentrating.

However, none of the three quotes Belbarrus provided (from the rulebooks, no less ) lend any support to this premise.

Debate over.

 

[Bauglir]

Debate over.

Far from it.

The subject of a hold person is not able to take physical actions. If an action needs to be driven muscularly to be definable as physical, or if propelling oneself magically also qualifies is entirely open to debate.

 

[LokiDR]

PH. Page 214, Hold Person: "The subject freezes in place, standing helpless."
DMG Page 79: "A paralyzed or held character cannot move, speak, or take any physical action. He is rooted to the spot, frozen and helpless."
DMG Page 85: "Held characters are subject to enchantments that make them unable to move. They are helpless."

Three instances that say that a Held person *cannot* move. Actual quotes from the rulebooks themselves.

"since Fly requires a "mental action"."

Your debate is that a person with the Fly spell can still move because flying is a 'mental only' action. Please give me ONE quote from the rulebook that confirms that moving with the fly spell is a mental action, as opposed to your * interpretation* or opinion of the rules. If you can quote the rule that moving with the fly spell is indeed a mental action, then the debate is over.

You have just made my day, thank you.

Flying only requires concentration. It states in the description of fly. So, by your own logic, the debate is over.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Flying only requires concentration. It states in the description of fly.

No, it doesn't.

It says that Flying requires as much concentration as walking.

By definition, walking requires as much concentration as walking... but it's not a mental-only action.

You're adding words that aren't there.

-Hyp.

 

[LokiDR]

Far from it.

The subject of a hold person is not able to take physical actions. If an action needs to be driven muscularly to be definable as physical, or if propelling oneself magically also qualifies is entirely open to debate.

There is no debate on that fact. A character can take mental actions. Controling a spell is a mental action. Flight by the fly spell requires no physical movement, it just moves you. An external force can act on the character (see the held winged creature falling). Hence, the fly spell functions normally.

If I invent a spell called shove that allowed me as a move-equivalent action to bull rush a person with a force by concentrating, would this be physically moving? No.

The spell is moving a creature, not the creature moving the spell. It is really quite simple.

 

[LokiDR]

No, it doesn't.

It says the Flying requires as much concentration as walking.

By definition, walking requires as much concentration as walking... but it's not a mental-only action.

You're adding words that aren't there.

-Hyp.

Flying states it requires a specific amount of concentration. It does not state you need to perform any somatic components to continue the spell. It does not state you can not use the spell while tied up, held or otherwise unable to move.

The ONLY requirement is concentration. The fact that this amount of concentration is likened to physical action doesn't change the fact that it is only concentration.

 

[Jeremy E Grenemyer]

Originally posted by Hypersmurf
By definition, walking requires as much concentration as walking... but it's not a mental-only action. You're adding words that aren't there.

If you compare LokiDR's quote to the PHB, then your statement is true. But LokiDR is not saying anything different than what's written in the spell description for Fly either.

I'm sorry, this is just too much.

'Smurf, the description for the Fly spell clearly states that one need only concentrate to fly as much as one would need to concentrate to walk.

This is the critical point of comparison. It's telling us that, in order to fly, one need spend only as much mental energy as is required to navigate on two feet.

The spell description clarifies this point even further by stating in no uncertain terms that one can still attack and cast normally while flying.

There's no ambiguity here. If one was required to flap one's arms, kick one's legs, whatever.. the spell description would say so. But you know what? It doesn't.

There comes a point where the rules end and common sense takes over. While the spell description is not written word for word like LokiDR's post, the spell description says exactly what he wrote.

But, like I said, this debate is already over. I wonder if that silly Blade Barrier thread is still alive...?

 

[Hypersmurf]

There's no ambiguity here. If one was required to flap one's arms, kick one's legs, whatever.. the spell description would say so. But you know what? It doesn't.

How do you account for the fact that someone wearing Medium Armor has their speed reduced from 90' to 60', but someone carrying Medium Armor does not?

Armor slows you down because it restricts your movement. Someone flying is slowed down because they wear armor.

Therefore, someone flying is slowed down because their movement is restricted.

If they can't move, they can't fly.

-Hyp.

 

[LokiDR]

If you compare LokiDR's quote to the PHB, then your statement is true. But LokiDR is not saying anything different than what's written in the spell description for Fly either.

I'm sorry, this is just too much.

'Smurf, the description for the Fly spell clearly states that one need only concentrate to fly as much as one would need to concentrate to walk.

This is the critical point of comparison. It's telling us that, in order to fly, one need spend only as much mental energy as is required to navigate on two feet.

The spell description clarifies this point even further by stating in no uncertain terms that one can still attack and cast normally while flying.

There's no ambiguity here. If one was required to flap one's arms, kick one's legs, whatever.. the spell description would say so. But you know what? It doesn't.

There comes a point where the rules end and common sense takes over. While the spell description is not written word for word like LokiDR's post, the spell description says exactly what he wrote.

But, like I said, this debate is already over. I wonder if that silly Blade Barrier thread is still alive...?

I was paraphrasing the SRD the whole time, for I have 1337 SRD-fu skills.

I am almost sorry to see this debate be over, since it has been so amusing.

 

[LokiDR]

How do you account for the fact that someone wearing Medium Armor has their speed reduced from 90' to 60', but someone carrying Medium Armor does not?

Armor slows you down because it restricts your movement. Someone flying is slowed down because they wear armor.

Therefore, someone flying is slowed down because their movement is restricted.

If they can't move, they can't fly.

-Hyp.

Huh? I don't recall any reference to armor changing the speed of character under the effects of a fly spell.