Hold Person vs Boots of Flying

[LokiDR]

IHNJ, IJLS that what is it with all the yellow-ball avatars in this thread?

He's got big balls, and she's got big balls
But we've got the biggest BALLS OF THEM ALL!

- Loki "I wish I could be amusing" DR

 

[LokiDR]

"Is it then your opinion that a Hold spell would also prevent the target from casting a silenced, stilled Teleport to get away? After all, that counts as movement as well."

No. Because you are casting a spell, you are not "moving". The *results* of the spell may have you relocated, but the action itself that you are doing yourself is not moving. For example, the teleportation itself is not a "move" action within the rules of the game, you are casting a spell. Just like you could cast a still, silent Dispel Magic to dispel the Hold, then you are free to move. You cannot fly while held because this is a direct movement action, which you are compelled to not do.

More flawed logic.

If your thoughts are changed so that you can not contemplate moving, fly, levitate, telekinesis, dominate and any other spell that could move you would not be possible for that effect. After all, you are saying the character can't think of moving.

 

[LokiDR]

Here's a question: Suppose someone has both Hold Person and Otto's Irresistable Dance cast on them.

Hold Person compels you not to move your body. Otto's Irresistable Dance compels you to move your body (to dance).

Which one wins out?

Whoever has the bigger gun

Either the higher level one (OIR) or whichever was cast last.

 

[Belbarrus]

"More flawed logic."

What logic? I am talking about the rules in the PH. Remember the book with the words and pictures that lists the rules on how to play the game?

"You are trying to bend the rules to say something they don't: that hold person prevents you from thinking about moving. You are stretching."

Hold Person is an enchantment compulsion spell: "Some spells determine the subject's actions (or the effects on the subject)"
Hold person spell says: "The subject freezes in place, standing helpless."

Therefore, the target is compelled to freeze in place, standing helpless; the spell effect determines this. It's right there! How am I bending the rules? *What* am I stretching? The Hold person spell is straightforward. All you guys are trying to find loopholes in OTHER spells that will negate the Hold person effect. You guys are debating whether or not Fly, Levitate, etc is a mental action and THEN applying this to the Hold person spell effect. How am *I* the one trying to bend rules?

Yes, the spell does not prevent you from wanting to move. You can cast a still, silent spell to do something. Someone can pick you up and carry you, etc. But the spell itself (straight from the rules) determines that you will freeze in place and stand helpless.

You guys are over-discussing the subject.

 

[LokiDR]

"More flawed logic."

What logic? I am talking about the rules in the PH. Remember the book with the words and pictures that lists the rules on how to play the game?

Your insulting tone sounds more like a troll than a debater. But I like feeding trolls.

You put for the logic that hold person, being an enchantment-compulsion, would change a person's thoughts. Then, in this segment of flawed logic, you attempt to say that teleportation is not movement, because it is not a move equivelant action.

"You are trying to bend the rules to say something they don't: that hold person prevents you from thinking about moving. You are stretching."

Hold Person is an enchantment compulsion spell: "Some spells determine the subject's actions (or the effects on the subject)"
Hold person spell says: "The subject freezes in place, standing helpless."

So, the spell prevents the person from taking any PHYSICAL action, they have no control of thier body. Hold Person says "The subject can, however, execute purely mental actions." Controling a spell is a purely mental action. Pure and simple.

Therefore, the target is compelled to freeze in place, standing helpless; the spell effect determines this. It's right there! How am I bending the rules? *What* am I stretching? The Hold person spell is straightforward. All you guys are trying to find loopholes in OTHER spells that will negate the Hold person effect. You guys are debating whether or not Fly, Levitate, etc is a mental action and THEN applying this to the Hold person spell effect. How am *I* the one trying to bend rules?

You are bending Hold Person, and ignoring the fact that controling a spell is a mental action.

We are not trying to find loopholes. You are trying to apply a spell in a way that it does not work.

Yes, the spell does not prevent you from wanting to move. You can cast a still, silent spell to do something. Someone can pick you up and carry you, etc. But the spell itself (straight from the rules) determines that you will freeze in place and stand helpless.

The spell states you will stand there. It does not say you can not control spells, it does not say that spells can not move you, and therefore, does not mean you will be utterly helpless in all cases. The question is how fly and hold person interact, and that is the answer: you can fly.

You guys are over-discussing the subject.

No, you are missing a basic part of Hold Person.

 

[Murrdox]

What LokiDR said.

I don't care HOW you are moving, but if it only requires mental concentration, then Hold does not work. Hold is a paralysis effect. It stops you from moving your limbs. It's really straightforward. If by "flying" you need to flap wings, you can't fly anymore, because you are paralyzed. Your wings won't move. If to "fly" you simply need to concentrate, your movement isn't affected at all, because nothing in Hold Person specifies that it affects your concentration. You look like a statue flying through the air, but you're still flying nonetheless.

Also, note that you are still technically "Helpless" if you are both Held and Flying. If another flying creature starts its turn next to you, it can still try to Coup de Grace.

The fact that you can fly doesn't change the fact that you have no ability to defend yourself.

You're also still "Standing". You're just floating through the air at the same time.

Here's a question: Suppose someone has both Hold Person and Otto's Irresistable Dance cast on them.

Hold Person compels you not to move your body. Otto's Irresistable Dance compels you to move your body (to dance).

Which one wins out?

Hmm... I don't remember anything about Otto's Irresistable Dance dispelling paralysis effects, so Hold Person wins. However, if the duration of Hold expires and there is still time left on the casting of Otto's, then the person in question ceases being Held and immediately begins his best John Travolta impersonation.

 

[LokiDR]

Also, note that you are still technically "Helpless" if you are both Held and Flying. If another flying creature starts its turn next to you, it can still try to Coup de Grace.

The fact that you can fly doesn't change the fact that you have no ability to defend yourself.

You're also still "Standing". You're just floating through the air at the same time.

Though technically true, I would probably house rule this. The person just needs to think and that knife won't land exactly where they want it. Yes to sneak attack, not to CdG.

 

[EPRock]

Description of the Hold Person Spell

Hold Person (PH: 214)
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 2, Clr 2, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V,S,F/DF
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One humanoid of Medium-size or smaller
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

The subject freezes in place, standing helpless. He is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any physical actions, even speech. He can however execute purely mental actions (such as casting a spell with no components).
A winged creature who is held cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can't swim and may drown.
Arcane Focus: A small, straight piece of iron.

Hold Person is an Enchantment (Compulsion)[Mind-Affecting]

Definition of Enchantment - Compulsion (PH: 157)

Compulsion: The spell forces the subject to act in some manner or changes the way her mind works. Some spells determine the subjects actions (or the effects on the subject), some allow you to determine the subject's actions when you cast the spell, and others give you ongoing control over the subject.

By reading it, it seems to me that the targets mind is now told to sit there and do not move at all.

Now the player is not able to move on their own, they have no desire to move under the context of the (Compulsion) that would mean they cannot even fathom moving when they are held. So that would mean that they do not want to walk, crawl, run, swim, fly away.

 

[Jeremy E Grenemyer]

LokiDR is correct

Hold Person says "The subject can, however, execute purely mental actions." Controling a spell is a purely mental action.

That's pretty much it right there. If that line of text was not in the spell, Belbarrus' interpretation would be correct.

It's important to remember that the general overview given for spell types (such as the deffinition of what a "Compulsion" is) do not over-ride the specific text of a particular spell.

In that regard, someone under the effects of a Hold spell can Fly about if a Fly spell is active on them...

On a tangential note: even if the text about mental actions were not included with the spell text, I would not want to nerf my player's attempts at laterally thinking their way out of being Held.

IMNSHO, the designers had this in mind when the spell was written.

 

[Shaele]

Description of the Hold Person Spell

The subject freezes in place, standing helpless. He is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any physical actions, even speech. He can however execute purely mental actions (such as casting a spell with no components).

It all depends on how you interpret this. Is it:
(a) the creature will force himself to stand perfectly still and take no actions. His body is perfectly fine, but his mind is forcing him to act a certain way, or
(b) the creature is unable to move his body, as though paralyzed. He is free to think what he wishes, but basically has no ability to animate his body.

Many people choose to interpret the intent of the spell as (b) a self-induced paralysis effect. i.e. you're unable to move your body.

You might infer (a) from the description of a compulsion effect, but it's unclear from the text. IMHO, viewing it as paralysis makes more sense, and is more balanced with the level of the spell (i.e. 2nd level for a cleric!) Reading more into it prevents most countermeasures, and I believe increases the power of the spell.

Following the line of reasoning that states that the victim will choose to "not fly because of the compulsion": what happens if a friendly character tries to move the victim? Will he fight back in an attempt to "remain still"? After all, if it's only a compulsion, then he actually _can_ move, he just chooses not to do so...

<visions of the held-rogue stabbing the wizard repeatedly when the wizard attempts to drag him from the field of battle. "Leave me alone, I LIKE standing still!">