Hold Person vs Boots of Flying

[LokiDR]

Okay, let's try this approach. Some of you are still not understanding the *concept* of spell types.

Enchantment-Compulsion: The spell forces the subject to act in some manner or changes the way her mind works. Some spells determine the subject's actions (or the effects on the subject), some allow you to determine the subject's actions when you cast the spell and others give you ongoing control over the subject.

While discussing whether or not Fly is controlled through a mental action, you are completely forgetting about the Hold spell itself. Hold spells *Compel* the target, through enchantment to NOT move. The target thinks, "Hey, I can just coast along with my fly spell.", but the Hold Person spell, being and Echantment-compulsion, magically causes the target to think, "No, I will just stay here and do nothing." Whether Fly is controlled by mental action is moot. IF (big IF) Hold person was a transmutation or abjuration spell that held the target (via a force field) for example, then you would be able to still Fly with the spell. But the Hold person spell is a Compulsion that is compelling the target to not move.

You are streaching.

"The spell forces the subject to act in some manner or changes the way her mind works. " Hold changes the way your mind works, preventing the control of any limbs.

Hold person is not the same thing as a a suggestion to stand still. It is not a mental compulsion in the english sense, it is changes the way you mind works. It does not, IN ANY WAY, prevent any thoughts you have. You can think at your body all you want, you mind just isn't capable of controling it. Hold person does not change your thoughts, hence you can still concentrate. The compulsion prevents direct control of your physical body, and that is all.

If the spell physically restrained you (as harden air in Wheel of Time) you would NOT be able to fly and you would be prevented from moving, in any direction by any force.

Hold person does not prevent you from falling. Hold person does not prevent someone from picking you up and carrying you. If you had dominated someone, you could mentally command them to carry you away. If you had previously cast a flaming sphere, you could use it to burn ropes and possibly drop the platform you are standing on, hence moving you.

The letter of the rule is pretty clear.

 

[the Jester]

Interesting debate.

I'm not sure which end of it I fall on; I lean viscerally towards the can't-fly side- it just feels better- but the rules are too vague to make a solid call, and in cases like those I'm often fairly liberal.

 

[Belbarrus]

"Hold person is not the same thing as a a suggestion to stand still. It is not a mental compulsion in the english sense, it is changes the way you mind works. It does not, IN ANY WAY, prevent any thoughts you have."

What are you talking about?! Hold person IS a mental compulsion, hence the spell being titled "Enchantment-compulsion". I already listed the description of what an Enchantment-Compulsion spell does. How am I streaching (I assume you meant stretching)? This is the wording of the rules right from the PHB.

"Hold person does not prevent you from falling. Hold person does not prevent someone from picking you up and carrying you. If you had dominated someone, you could mentally command them to carry you away. If you had previously cast a flaming sphere, you could use it to burn ropes and possibly drop the platform you are standing on, hence moving you."

Right, everything you mentioned here falls into what I said about the spell compelling the *target* to not move. If you were flying you would fall because the spell is compelling you to not move on your own accord. Someone else could move you, because *they* are not enchanted, etc.

"The letter of the rule is pretty clear."

That's right, it is. Hold person, being an enchantment-compulsion spell, the spell determines how the subject will or will not act.

 

[hong]

IHNJ, IJLS that what is it with all the yellow-ball avatars in this thread?

 

[Grog]

While discussing whether or not Fly is controlled through a mental action, you are completely forgetting about the Hold spell itself. Hold spells *Compel* the target, through enchantment to NOT move.

Is it then your opinion that a Hold spell would also prevent the target from casting a silenced, stilled Teleport to get away? After all, that counts as movement as well.

 

[Belbarrus]

"Is it then your opinion that a Hold spell would also prevent the target from casting a silenced, stilled Teleport to get away? After all, that counts as movement as well."

No. Because you are casting a spell, you are not "moving". The *results* of the spell may have you relocated, but the action itself that you are doing yourself is not moving. For example, the teleportation itself is not a "move" action within the rules of the game, you are casting a spell. Just like you could cast a still, silent Dispel Magic to dispel the Hold, then you are free to move. You cannot fly while held because this is a direct movement action, which you are compelled to not do.

 

[Grog]

No. Because you are casting a spell, you are not "moving". The *results* of the spell may have you relocated, but the action itself that you are doing yourself is not moving. For example, the teleportation itself is not a "move" action within the rules of the game, you are casting a spell. Just like you could cast a still, silent Dispel Magic to dispel the Hold, then you are free to move. You cannot fly while held because this is a direct movement action, which you are compelled to not do.

I don't buy this. Obviously, characters don't know about "move actions" and "standard actions", so one form of movement would be no different from another, assuming the spell worked the way you say it does.

If you're compelled not to move, that should include any means of movement, including teleportation.

 

[Murrdox]

The Fly spell is no different from Telekenisis or Levitate. It is a flying ability that is "thought" powered.

When under a Levitate spell, you think "move up 30'" and you rise up in the air 30'.

The only difference between Levitate and Fly is that when under a Fly spell, you can do more than simply rise up and down.

Hold Person is a mind-influencing spell that forces you to stand still. If you are capable of movement without moving any part of your body, Hold Person is not going to affect that.

 

[LokiDR]

"Hold person is not the same thing as a a suggestion to stand still. It is not a mental compulsion in the english sense, it is changes the way you mind works. It does not, IN ANY WAY, prevent any thoughts you have."

What are you talking about?! Hold person IS a mental compulsion, hence the spell being titled "Enchantment-compulsion". I already listed the description of what an Enchantment-Compulsion spell does. How am I streaching (I assume you meant stretching)? This is the wording of the rules right from the PHB.

A compulsion to change the way your mind works, preventing you from controling your body. It does not change your thoughts. It does not prevent thoughts. It is not the same as a suggestion not to move, or being dominated and being commanded not to move.

You are trying to bend the rules to say something they don't: that hold person prevents you from thinking about moving. You are stretching.

 

[Grog]

Here's a question: Suppose someone has both Hold Person and Otto's Irresistable Dance cast on them.

Hold Person compels you not to move your body. Otto's Irresistable Dance compels you to move your body (to dance).

Which one wins out?