Hold Person vs Boots of Flying

[Gwarok]

Doesn't Telekinesis specifically state that you can't use it to move yourself, i.e. - fly with it?

 

[Krail Stromquism]

Technically this is a legal move although is is super SCHMALTZY!

Flying around bumbing into invisible creatures? are you CRAZY?

Obviously this character has too many hit points and your DM should probably smite them immediately!

Theres no mercy in the Arena! remeber that!

Anyway, what if the Held character was a Psionicist? or a craeture with spell like abilities or god forbid even a sad excuse for a Jedi using Force Strike?

The long and short of it is this: By the strictist definition of the spells involved you can do it. By the rule of thumb of the level of the spells being used you can do it.

I would say you get no Dex to AC as well as probably take a -2 situational penalty to your AC and Reflex Saves as well.

Your DM probably went easy on you though.


PS (keldor sleen will rise again!)

 

[Belbarrus]

"The subject is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any physical actions, even speech."

Flying is a *physical* action; you have to move *physically*. Even the fly spell states that flying "requires as much concentration as walking", which is also a physical action.

"A winged creature who is held cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can't swim and may drown."

A flyer who cannot flap, falls. A swimmer cant swim and drowns, ergo, a walker cannot walk.

If you try to justify flying as a "mental" action, then technically *everything* is a mental action: I can still attack when Held, because my *mind* is commanding my arm to swing the sword and therefore is a mental action.

 

[LokiDR]

Doesn't Telekinesis specifically state that you can't use it to move yourself, i.e. - fly with it?

No, there is no provision like that in the spell. It just happens to be really bad flight and you must take a standard action each round to keep it up. The point still stands.

 

[Zogg]

No, there is no provision like that in the spell. It just happens to be really bad flight and you must take a standard action each round to keep it up. The point still stands.

The point is moot and tangential at best. In order words, your telekinesis example is a whole other ball of wax and does not help illustrate your belief about how using boots of flying is a mere mental command.

I would argue that properly using boots of flying - in addition to simple mental control - requires some kind of foot/leg movement that, if ignored (as per a hold spell), would render the subject in a hovering position. It just makes sense.

 

[LokiDR]

"The subject is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any physical actions, even speech."

Flying is a *physical* action; you have to move *physically*. Even the fly spell states that flying "requires as much concentration as walking", which is also a physical action.

"A winged creature who is held cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can't swim and may drown."

A flyer who cannot flap, falls. A swimmer cant swim and drowns, ergo, a walker cannot walk.

If you try to justify flying as a "mental" action, then technically *everything* is a mental action: I can still attack when Held, because my *mind* is commanding my arm to swing the sword and therefore is a mental action.

Your logic is vastly flawed.

If the fly spell caused wings to sprout from your back, you would be correct. That is not what the spell does. If I was bound and gagged, I could still cast a still, silent, escued material fly spell without a problem and move around.

The use the fly spell in no way assumes you can physically move. It has nothing to do with your arms or legs. We aren't talking about wings or fins.

The fact that the spell mentions walking does not mean it is walking. It only mentions concentration, and a small amount at that. Hold person specifically mentions that concentration is not prevented.

This is the rules forum. There are no rules that prevent you from moving by the fly spell if you are held. Houserules not withstanding, you are wrong.

 

[LokiDR]

The point is moot and tangential at best. In order words, your telekinesis example is a whole other ball of wax and does not help illustrate your belief about how using boots of flying is a mere mental command.

My point is that hold does not interupt concentration.

The boots say "as per the fly spell".

I would argue that properly using boots of flying - in addition to simple mental control - requires some kind of foot/leg movement that, if ignored (as per a hold spell), would render the subject in a hovering position. It just makes sense.

It really doesn't matter what you or I would rule. The fact is that flight by the fly spell is not restricted by the hold person spell, as control of the spell moving you is a purely mental action.

Now, if you want to say this makes no sense and the boots should have their description altered, I might not disagree. I personally like the idea of being stuck in a superman pose, still flying. If you want to change something in a game, it is a house rule. House rules are fine, and fun, but won't hold up in rule debate.

 

[Bismark]

There's a nice long thread arguing this point back and forth at another board. I think it's interesting to see how they get argued differently.

Can You Fly While Held?

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

I'm virtually positive that it was either in the FAQ or on some message board that one of the designers responded with "yes, you can fly, controlling a spell is a mental action, just as a still, silent spell is. These can be cast while held as well."

However, I can't find where it is at the moment and don't feel like searching. I do, however remember this coming up in a game I ran once and I ruled that they fell, but afterwards, I saw the FAQ or the message and changed my mind.

 

[Belbarrus]

Okay, let's try this approach. Some of you are still not understanding the *concept* of spell types.

Enchantment-Compulsion: The spell forces the subject to act in some manner or changes the way her mind works. Some spells determine the subject's actions (or the effects on the subject), some allow you to determine the subject's actions when you cast the spell and others give you ongoing control over the subject.

While discussing whether or not Fly is controlled through a mental action, you are completely forgetting about the Hold spell itself. Hold spells *Compel* the target, through enchantment to NOT move. The target thinks, "Hey, I can just coast along with my fly spell.", but the Hold Person spell, being and Echantment-compulsion, magically causes the target to think, "No, I will just stay here and do nothing." Whether Fly is controlled by mental action is moot. IF (big IF) Hold person was a transmutation or abjuration spell that held the target (via a force field) for example, then you would be able to still Fly with the spell. But the Hold person spell is a Compulsion that is compelling the target to not move.