Hold Person vs Boots of Flying

[EPRock]

Read (DMG:79)

Paralysis and Hold
A paralyzed or held character cannot move, speak, or take any physical action. He is rooted to the spot, frozen and helpless. Not even friends can move his limbs. He may take purely mental actions, such as casting a spell with no components.

Well even if he is flying he is rooted in three directions no moving is possible.

 

[Murrdox]

A paralyzed or held character cannot move, speak, or take any physical action.

Does Fly require the character move? No. He displaces distance without moving.

Does it require he speak? No.

Does it require he take any physical action? No. He must merely concentrate on flying.

He is rooted to the spot, frozen and helpless. Not even friends can move his limbs.

You cannot "root" someone to air. Nice try though. Does a character with wings then become suspended in mid-air when held? No? Good.

I agree he's frozen and helpless. I'd allow someone to coup de grace a flying held creature (sorry, LokiDR. )

Since flying doesn't require limb-moving, he's still fine.

He may take purely mental actions, such as casting a spell with no components.

Well bam, there you go. That line is GIVING him permission to keep flying, since Fly requires a "mental action". I don't care if the "mental action" you take is to mentally organize your grocery list, fly, or maintain a Dominate Person spell. The text of Hold Person allows you to keep doing it.

Well even if he is flying he is rooted in three directions no moving is possible.

Don't be an idiot, you know that's just plain silly.

I believe you're confusing two definitions for MOVE.

1) I walk forward 10 feet. I have MOVED (definition is displacing myself 10 feet)

2) I wave my arms around in the air. I have MOVED (definition is exercising my motor functions)

Now, MOST TIMES, if I cannot MOVE #2, I can also not MOVE #1. Afterall, if I have no motor functions, I cannot walk forward.

However, if I have no motor functions, and you put me on a conveyor belt, I AM moving per #1 (I am displacing distance) but I am not moving per #2 (I still have no motor functions).

You could argue that the CONVEYOR BELT is moving me, not ME. Okay, that's fine. Let's make the conveyor belt plugged into a microchip in my head. When I think about it, I can activate the conveyor belt. Now, deprive me of my motor functions and stick me on the conveyor belt. I think the belt to move... and I'm moving, and I'm also causing myself to move.

Hold Person prohibits MOVE #2. Not MOVE #1. I am still capable of displacing distance. Since Hold Person does not influence my concentration, I'm still free to think to activate the conveyor belt, and thus I'm also free to think to control my Fly spell.

 

[LokiDR]

[snip]
By reading it, it seems to me that the targets mind is now told to sit there and do not move at all.

Now the player is not able to move on their own, they have no desire to move under the context of the (Compulsion) that would mean they cannot even fathom moving when they are held. So that would mean that they do not want to walk, crawl, run, swim, fly away.

More people that choose to ignore the rules as whole and point a one or two lines. Larger fonts are the written equivelent of shouting. If you want a shouting match, I will be happy to oblige you, but I will not do it here. Email me directly if that is what you want.

Does Hold Person allow you to take purely mental actions - Yes.
Is controling the fly spell a purely mental action - Yes.
Can you use the fly spell while under the Hold Person - Yes.

Does Hold Person changes the thoughts of the person so they don't want to move - No. You are reading more into the term compulsion than exists there. Nothing in the description of the D&D term compulsion prevents the person from trying to circumvent a specific effect. Hold person prevents physical action on the part of the person, not physical movement.

I don't know why some people have such a hard time with this, or why they defend this so vehementaly.

 

[LokiDR]

Re: LokiDR is correct

That's pretty much it right there. If that line of text was not in the spell, Belbarrus' interpretation would be correct.

It's important to remember that the general overview given for spell types (such as the deffinition of what a "Compulsion" is) do not over-ride the specific text of a particular spell.

In that regard, someone under the effects of a Hold spell can Fly about if a Fly spell had been already cast upon them, or activate their Boots of Flying, etc...

On a tangential note: even if the text about mental actions were not included with the spell text, I would not want to nerf my player's attempts at laterally thinking their way out of being Held.

IMNSHO, the designers had this in mind when the spell was written.

Thanks for the vote

You can not activate the boots after you have been held though, since they are command word activated.

 

[EPRock]

According to your Methodology this situation could happen

Low level mage casts a sleep spell on an enemy humanoid

Sleep Spell is an Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
The target falls asleep.

Next round the target gets up and attacks you.
Why? Because there is no reason saying that they cannot sleepwalk, and sleep attack.

There is nothing in the books that say they can't.

 

[Jeremy E Grenemyer]

You can not activate the boots after you have been held though, since they are command word activated.

My Bad!

I thought for sure it took a mental command to activate them. Will edit accordingly...

 

[LokiDR]

Read (DMG:79)

Paralysis and Hold
A paralyzed or held character cannot move, speak, or take any physical action. He is rooted to the spot, frozen and helpless. Not even friends can move his limbs. He may take purely mental actions, such as casting a spell with no components.

Well even if he is flying he is rooted in three directions no moving is possible.

Points for persistance, but you are ingnoring facts to suit your own position.

You just said that a held creature will not fall, as they are held. Hold person mentions that a creature flying by wings and held will fall. One more hole in your aruguement.

What you fail to grasp is the fact that the descriptions of spells like Hold Person and others assume the person is under no other magical effects. Thus when they say held, they assume they were moving by conventional methods. Magic can trump magic, such as dominate trumping charm person.


Murrdox:

I agree he's frozen and helpless. I'd allow someone to coup de grace a flying held creature (sorry, LokiDR. )

I can deal with people not liking my house rule.

 

[LokiDR]

According to your Methodology this situation could happen

Low level mage casts a sleep spell on an enemy humanoid

Sleep Spell is an Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
The target falls asleep.

Next round the target gets up and attacks you.
Why? Because there is no reason saying that they cannot sleepwalk, and sleep attack.

There is nothing in the books that say they can't.

That kind of argument is called a straw man. You liken an obviously flawed reasoning to my reasoning and tear down the flawed reasoning. The problem is that the situation is completely different. Sleep does not specifically allow mental actions, as hold does. It is not an equivalent situation and therefore has nothing to do with the current debate.

It did amuse me though, if that is any consolation.

 

[Belbarrus]

PH. Page 214, Hold Person: "The subject freezes in place, standing helpless."
DMG Page 79: "A paralyzed or held character cannot move, speak, or take any physical action. He is rooted to the spot, frozen and helpless."
DMG Page 85: "Held characters are subject to enchantments that make them unable to move. They are helpless."

Three instances that say that a Held person *cannot* move. Actual quotes from the rulebooks themselves.

"since Fly requires a "mental action"."

Your debate is that a person with the Fly spell can still move because flying is a 'mental only' action. Please give me ONE quote from the rulebook that confirms that moving with the fly spell is a mental action, as opposed to your * interpretation* or opinion of the rules. If you can quote the rule that moving with the fly spell is indeed a mental action, then the debate is over.

 

[Hypersmurf]

To me, "cannot move" in the Held description implies "cannot take an action that involves travelling based on a speed".

Move, Double-Move, Climb, Swim, Charge, Jump, and Run all rely on your base speed.

The Fly spell gives you a fly speed of 90, modified for armor and load. It doesn't matter whether you cast it on yourself or someone else casts it on you, you control the flight. Therefore it is movement, and IMO disallowed by the Held condition.

Levitate, on the other hand, is not controlled by the target, it is controlled by the caster. While flying is movement, levitating an object or creature - even if that creature is yourself - is not movement.

I would, therefore, allow a Held creature who had cast Levitate (or who had a Silent, Stilled Levitate prepared) to manipulate the target mentally - even if the target is himself - but I would not allow him to utilise a Fly spell.

-Hyp.