Hold Person vs Boots of Flying

[LokiDR]

Yes, the debate is whether control of the flight spell is physical or mental action.

The spell physically moves you: irrelevant. Purely mental actions in a world of magic can cause physical movement.

Fly requires a move-equivelant action to move a person: irrelevant. That is only a measure of the kind of time and concentration the spell requires to use. See flaming sphere.

So what does fly need? What does it say it needs? It only requires concentration in the spell description. Concentration is a mental action. Hence fly is a mental action. Can I make that any clearer?

Frankly I think this is a matter of having to prove that moving with a Fly spell is a mental action, as opposed to being a "move" action. If you were at Point A (in 3 dimensional space, lets say) and you moved to Point B, then you "moved" and the Hold spell prevents you from doing this voluntarily. Whether you got there because you walked, climbed, swam or flew is irrevalant. Getting there by other means is acceptable. You can cast a silent, still teleport as a mental action, because the spell is not preventing you from casting a mental spell (For example, the action you are taking is a spell casting action, not a move action). If the *end result* of the spell relocates you, you still have not moved yourself on your own accord (for example, Hold does not stop someone else teleporting you either). If someone carried you this is fine, because you are not moving on your own accord. If you fell (because you could not flap wings for example), this is fine because you are not moving voluntarily. You can levitate (because the spell specifically states that you can control the levitation as a mental action).

Your silent teleport has moved you. Change in position over time. Your explanation does not explain telekinisis. Mine does. Are you saying you can't use a spell-like ability of telekinisis to pick yourself up and move your body by virtue of the spell?

The end result is meaningless. We have been saying this all along, but that is all you have focused on.

Hold is meant to be paralasis, not some dimensia that you can't move.

The question then is whether controling fly is a mental or physical action. See above.

As I said before, moving with a Fly spell being a "mental action" is interpretation. There is no rule (unless someone can point out the page and which rulebook) that confirms this. Moving with a Fly spell is still considered "moving".

What does the fly spell require?
What movements of body would be impossible?

You are taking rule segments out of context and trying to build an arguement around it. This bothers me. There is no rule that calls use of the fly spell "physical movement". You are using english and somatics. I am looking at the description of the fly spell.

Also, the idea that the "enchanment Compulsion"spell alters the targets thinking has been frequently critized. Meanwhile the defense is usually, "the spell stops the brain sending messages to the body". But the rules do NOT state that anywhere, not even remotely.

In no place does the description of Enchantment:Compulsion state that it changes the thoughts of the target. A dominated person doesn't want to do those things they are commanded to do, but they are commpelled to do them. Spells do only what they say they do. A compulsion spell can change the way a person's mind works, and one way that can be visualized is disabling the motor centers of the brain and spinal cord. This is a visualization of altering the way a mind works, but it is consistant with the description of the compulsion sub-school and the Hold Person spell.

I think it comes down to a house rules thing. Those that say that Fly-ing is moving and therefore prohibited when held and those that state that you are not moving with a Fly spell you are "mentally" controlling the effects of a spell which, indirectly, cause you to move about.

I don't think allowing use of the fly spell while under hold person is a house rule. I think stopping a person in mid-air with hold person is a house rule.

By the way, if things really were that open to interpretation, no house rules would be neccessary unless a clarification of this situation was published. House rules contradict published rules.

 

[EPRock]

In no place does the description of Enchantment:Compulsion state that it changes the thoughts of the target. .

As quoted from the Players Handbook and from the SRD the definition of Enchantment: Compulsion

Compulsion: The spell forces the subject to act in some manner or changes the way her mind works.

I don't know what crack you are smoking but pass me some.

Basically you may want to move by using whatever methods you have but you cannot move yourself.

Forces means that you are FORCED to not do something.

Essentially the Hold Person spell forces your mind to not move you under your own free will.

So what does fly need? What does it say it needs? It only requires concentration in the spell description. Concentration is a mental action. Hence fly is a mental action. Can I make that any clearer?

Where in the rules does it say concentration is a mental action?

But, basically you are not even paying attention to the rules anymore. You have not even answered any of Belbarrus's questions, and you only come up with your interpretations, no references.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Fly requires a move-equivelant action to move a person: irrelevant. That is only a measure of the kind of time and concentration the spell requires to use. See flaming sphere.

Careful - not the same thing.

Controlling a flaming sphere requires a move-equivalent action, which is a measure of time and concentration.

Fly requires a move.

If you control a Flaming Sphere, you can take a 5' step. If you Fly, you can't, because you have "moved actual distance" in the round. If you Teleport, you can 5' step, because while your location has changed, you have not "moved actual distance" in a D&D-Technical sense.

-Hyp.

 

[Belbarrus]

The spell physically moves you: irrelevant.

What do you mean 'irrevelant"? The whole point of this discussion is movement being limited by a hold person spell.

Are you moving with the Fly spell? If yes, then the Hold spell stops you. If you say No, then that means you are immune to Attacks of Opportunity for moving through threat areas. Even with Fly, you are "moving" through their threat area. And the Hold Person spell prevents moving. Regardless of whether you "control" the Fly spell mentally or physically, you are still "moving". If you do not consider this "moving" then use of the Fly spell would let you escape AOOs for going through someones threat area.

There is no rule that calls use of the fly spell "physical movement". You are using english and somatics. I am looking at the description of the fly spell.

Okay, then tell me *where* it says that moving with a Fly spell IS mental action! I have been asking this so many times. Just show me *where* the rules state that moving with the Fly spell IS a mental action. Why are you refusing to do this? I am ALSO looking at the description of the Fly spell and it does NOT say anywhere that moving with this spell is a mental action.

In no place does the description of Enchantment:Compulsion state that it changes the thoughts of the target.

Okay now you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. P.157 of the PH, "Compulsion: The spell forces the subject to act in some manner or changes the way her mind works." P 73 of the DMG "A compulsion ovverides the subject's free will in some way or simply changes the way the subject's mind works."

disabling the motor centers of the brain and spinal cord.

You are getting way off track here. The game rules says nothing about "motor centers" or "spinal cords". You are going purely on speculation, opinion and interpretation and your side of the debate is not even staying within the boundaries of the game rules anymore.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Are you moving with the Fly spell? If yes, then the Hold spell stops you. If you say No, then that means you are immune to Attacks of Opportunity for moving through threat areas. Even with Fly, you are "moving" through their threat area. And the Hold Person spell prevents moving. Regardless of whether you "control" the Fly spell mentally or physically, you are still "moving". If you do not consider this "moving" then use of the Fly spell would let you escape AOOs for going through someones threat area.

Um, even though I'm on your side in the greater debate, I'm gonna call you on this one.

Check out Bull Rush. You still suffer an AoO for involuntary movement.

-Hyp.

 

[EPRock]

Check out Bull Rush. You still suffer an AoO for involuntary movement.

He is controlling the direction of his spell, he is voluntarily going wherever he wants.

 

[Jeremy E Grenemyer]

What dead debate? Their aint no dead debates here!

Well, I declared the debate dead, but nobody listened! That‘s it, you all get a time out.

Anyway, good afternoon from the West Coast of the USA.

A human walking has a speed of 30. If he's wearing Medium Armor, his speed is reduced to 20. He must take a Move action to move.

OK, I’m with you so far.

If he's riding a horse, he travels at the speed of the horse. If he's wearing Medium Armor, he still travels at the speed of the horse. He doesn't take a Move action to move, the horse does.

Technically, the Rider uses his own Move Action to move. The Horse spends its turn to move the rider. See the PHB for details (Mounted Combat, page 138.)

The remainder of your statement is true, assuming the weight of the armor does not also encumber the mount.

If someone is Telekinesing him, he travels at 20 feet per round, regardless of his armor. He doesn't take a Move action to move.

The second sentence is true. The first sentence is true only if the total weight of our hypothetical person (including all gear and armor) does not exceed the weight limit per level imposed by Telekinesis. (25 pounds per level, IIRC.)

If he's under a Fly spell, he has a speed of 90. If he's wearing Medium Armor, his speed is reduced to 60. He must take a Move action to move.

OK, were good here.

In situations where the character is not "moving" - where something is causing him to move - the armor he is wearing is irrelevant. Despite the fact that he is encumbered, the speed at which he travels is unaffected.

The first sentence is vague. What situations? Armor is relevant to Telekinesis and Fly, after all.

In cases where he is, in fact, "moving" in the D&D-technical sense of the word, wearing Medium Armor reduces his speed, because he is encumbered.

If you mean “taking a Move action”, both sentences are essentially correct. However, does the PHB use the term “encumbered” interchangeably? That is, aside from “encumbered” as it is used in the movement section of the PHB, is the term also used in the section on armor?

IDHTPHBIFOM, but I don’t think it does.

Telekinetic movement is unaffected by his encumbrance. A Fly spell is. While held, you can take "purely mental actions", but you cannot "move". Telekinesis does not require "moving" in the D&D-technical sense.

The first sentence is incorrect. Telekinetic movement is effected by encumbrance, as a character’s total weight is compared against the maximum weight a caster can move via Telekinesis.

The second sentence is correct.

The third sentence is vague. Do you mean physical movement (defined as swinging a sword, looking left and right, walking, running..) or do you mean “take a Move action”?

Flying, on the other hand, is notably similar to walking - it requires the same amount of concentration, it requires "moving" (prohibited by the held condition), and the speed is affected by the encumbrance of armor.

The second example in the first sentence is also vague. What kind of movement? Irregardless, it has been shown several times in this thread already that the description of the Fly spell includes no text whatsoever stating it is necessary to perform a physical action of some kind to make use the spell.

The third sentence is debatable. Encumbrance, or just because you wear armor?

If Flying were "purely mental"... why does the encumbrance of armor affect the speed?

The subject and question in the sentence are irrelevant to each other. Encumbrance has no effect on mental action.

 

[LokiDR]

I don't know what crack you are smoking but pass me some.

The phrase is "what are you smoking and where can I get some". But it now seems obvious you are on crack. Sorry, I'm not into that.

Basically you may want to move by using whatever methods you have but you cannot move yourself.

Forces means that you are FORCED to not do something.

Essentially the Hold Person spell forces your mind to not move you under your own free will.

No, it prevents physical control of your body by your mind. If I cut out the portion of your brain that controls motor functions, have I changed your thoughts?

Forced does not mean your thoughts are changed. It could just as easily be a person pushing your control of your body out of the way and put theirs in. I had thought this was a simple point, but appearently I was wrong.

Where in the rules does it say concentration is a mental action?

Ok, this is just getting stupid.

But, basically you are not even paying attention to the rules anymore. You have not even answered any of Belbarrus's questions, and you only come up with your interpretations, no references.

I keep refering to the fly, hold person and compulsion descriptions. You and Belbarrus keep ignoring my questions. This is going nowhere fast.

Suggestion: you type out exactly what you want me to answer and I will.

 

[Belbarrus]

Hypersmurf: True. But the point is, is that moving with the Fly spell is still "moving", which Hold prevents.

 

[Theodoric The Pious]

Hold Person equals Complusion

Upon reading all the post on here. I just want to add my 2 cents. For myself I played Clerics for most of my D&D life from 1st to 3rd edition. My take on hold person is simple. when someone gets hit my a hold person you are unable to do anything, no moving, no mental powers no concentrating to try and moves your are unable to do anything for if you try the spell WILL compel you to do nothing. This is what I think people are not looking at. Yes you are able to cast spell that will allow movement (DD or Teleport). However when someone tries to move physically or mentally they spell compels you to do nothing. I heard that you may be able to use a standard action to fly, but for myself I disagree for the fact that anytime I used this spell, the person is not going anywhere. The spell to be transcends both physical and mental control over the person. Yes you are aware of your surrounding and can understand what people are saying but once again, when you want to "Move" (mentally or physically) the spell prevents you from doing this. So for myself if someone say that they want to fly, walk, crawl, swim. I say that when a person is held, they are held, if you cannot be held like this, then the spell is worthless.

Theodoric the Pious.