Holy Liberator Immunity question

[hong]

Just because an effect is a non-spell effect (e.i. doesn't originate from a spell or isn't normally subject to spell resistance) doesn't mean immunity doesn't protect against it, which poison immunity proves quite clearly.

That's something else entirely.

I think you're confusing "ordinary" immunity and the 4th-level cleric spell spell immunity or the spell immunity of Mystra's Chosen.

Immunity to magic effects has been stated on several occasions to be the same as unbeatable SR.

 

[Cyraneth]

That's something else entirely.

How is that something entirely else? Being immune to one kind of effects is just as good (or bad) as being immune to another kind of effects. Note that I'm talking about effects, not spells.

Immunity to magic effects has been stated on several occasions to be the same as unbeatable SR.

Sure, but the Holy Liberator's description (p. 57-60 in DotF) states that the immunity protects against all effects, not just spells. - Being immune to charm and compulsion spells is something else entirely, agreed. And that's where I think you got thing confused.

- Cyraneth

 

[hong]

How is that something entirely else? Being immune to one kind of effects is just as good (or bad) as being immune to another kind of effects. Note that I'm talking about effects, not spells.

Immunity to magic has one specific mechanic to handle it, and immunity to poison has another. The two have nothing in common except the name, so please don't confuse the issue by introducing irrelevant examples.

Sure, but the Holy Liberator's description (p. 57-60 in DotF) states that the immunity protects against all effects, not just spells. - Being immune to charm and compulsion spells is something else entirely, agreed. And that's where I think you got thing confused.

Who's accusing who of getting confused now?

Every time this topic has come up, the consensus has been that magic immunity == unbeatable SR. This has been clarified by the Sage, IIRC.

 

[Cyraneth]

Immunity to magic has one specific mechanic to handle it, and immunity to poison has another. The two have nothing in common except the name, so please don't confuse the issue by introducing irrelevant examples.

Then please do tell, where does the it say that the charm and compulsion immunity is magic immunity? As I've stated since my first (or was it second?) post on this thread, the Holy Liberator is immune to a set of effects, not to a bunch of spells. Creatures with poison immunity are also immune to all kinds of poison, including the poison spell. Why would charm immunity be any different from poison immunity (except for the kind of immunity), and why do you keep stating that it is magic immunity?

- Cyraneth

 

[hong]

Then please do tell, where does the it say that the charm and compulsion immunity is magic immunity?

It should be fairly obvious that the vast majority of charm and compulsion effects _are_ magic, ie spells, spell-like or supernatural effects.

As I've stated since my first (or was it second?) post on this thread, the Holy Liberator is immune to a set of effects, not to a bunch of spells. Creatures with poison immunity are also immune to all kinds of poison, including the poison spell. Why would charm immunity be any different from poison immunity (except for the kind of immunity), and why do you keep stating that it is magic immunity?

Because charms are not poisons; they're magic. The vast majority of poison attacks are not delivered via spells, Sp or Su abilities. Point me to any instance of a charm effect that isn't either a spell, Sp, or Su. If any mechanic is suitable for use, it would be magic immunity.

 

[Cyraneth]

Because charms are not poisons; they're magic. The vast majority of poison attacks are not delivered via spells, Sp or Su abilities. Point me to any instance of a charm effect that isn't either a spell, Sp, or Su. If any mechanic is suitable for use, it would be magic immunity.

Well, immunities aren't categorized by "suitability", but by effects, unless stated otherwise. Note that the bard's suggestion ability (bardic music) is a spell-like, mind-affecting charm ability. Any immunity to mind-affecting effects and/or immunity to charm effects will negate it. And not just because it is a spell-like ability.

And by the way, supernatural effects aren't subject to spell resistance...

- Cyraneth

 

[hong]

Well, immunities aren't categorized by "suitability", but by effects, unless stated otherwise.

Says who?

Note that the bard's suggestion ability (bardic music) is a spell-like, mind-affecting charm ability. Any immunity to mind-affecting effects and/or immunity to charm effects will negate it. And not just because it is a spell-like ability.

I've already said that 1) the consensus on this forum and elsewhere is that immunity to magical effects is by default treated as unbeatable SR; 2) this has been confirmed by the Sage. Why don't YOU tell me where you got the idea that it works otherwise.

 

[Cyraneth]

I've already said that 1) the consensus on this forum and elsewhere is that immunity to magical effects is by default treated as unbeatable SR; 2) this has been confirmed by the Sage. Why don't YOU tell me where you got the idea that it works otherwise.

Well, if were to agree with you, new questions would pop up. What about a paladins aura of courage? Many fear effects are magical as well, so it being a magic immunity would suit it just as well. Most paralysis effects are magical as well, and sleep effects, and death effects, and... Well, I could go on. Lastly, we'd end up arguing that poison immunity is a magic immunity as well, just because there is a spell called poison. Can't we just stick to what's stated in the books? If the Holy Liberator is immune to all charm and compulsion effects, that means all charm and compulsion effects, not just the magical ones, just like a paladin is immune to all fear effects.

If it had stated that the Holy Liberator is immune to charm and compulsion spells and spell-like abilities as if protected by a spell immunity spell or as having unbeatable spell resistance, there wouldn't have been anything to discuss, but as it is, the immunity covers all effects, just like the paladin's ability.

- Cyraneth

 

[hong]

Well, if were to agree with you, new questions would pop up. What about a paladins aura of courage? Many fear effects are magical as well, so it being a magic immunity would suit it just as well.

Many, but not most. Many fear effects are Ex in nature, eg the dragon's fear aura.

Most paralysis effects are magical as well, and sleep effects, and death effects, and... Well, I could go on. Lastly, we'd end up arguing that poison immunity is a magic immunity as well, just because there is a spell called poison.

One spell does not equate to a majority, last I checked.

Can't we just stick to what's stated in the books? If the Holy Liberator is immune to all charm and compulsion effects, that means all charm and compulsion effects, not just the magical ones, just like a paladin is immune to all fear effects.

Including bless and aid? How ridiculous.

Perhaps the intention is that the paladin is immune to such effects but can switch it off _as if_ it were SR. Not that there would be any reason to do so in the paladin's case, but for the HL it's useful.

 

[Cyraneth]

And what about a minotaur's immunity to maze effects? That is most certainly a "magic immunity" or would be "suitable" as a magic immunity, but the maze spell isn't subject to spell resistance... So, unbeatable spell resistance wouldn't really be any help to a minotaur, huh?

- Cyraneth