Holy Word Woes

[DungeonMaster]

Use the 3rd edition version. It's balanced. The 3.5 version is categorically insane. Especially when you have caster-level addicts.
The guy who "updated" the 3rd edition spell system didn't know what he was doing.
I also suggest the 3rd edition versions of: darkness, forbiddance, geas and shapechange.
Actually I suggest 3rd edition core rules over 3.5 core rules but I've had one long debate recently and I'm not interested in another. (nor do I have time)

 

[AuraSeer]

Well, problem is that I don't want to spend a ton of time coming up with all encounter where the party is out gunned cause everyone is higher level. You should be able to put lower level guys in greater number against your party and they should be able to be challenged.

Note that the spell's power is based on hit dice, not on CR. For that reason it's less effective against dumb, strong monsters, because they have lots of hit dice for their level.

Heck, even some skeletons and zombies can ignore the spell. A wyvern zombie has 14 hit dice, making it immune to a minimum-level holy word, and also difficult to turn. Plus it's only CR 4, so you could use a dozen of them at once and still expect the PCs to win. If your party is higher than level 14, try gray render zombies; they have 20 HD and are CR 6.

The zombies are just an example, of course. Anything with lots of hit dice and a relatively low CR will do.

So, the party is around 15th in level, they kill everything under level 10, for the most part[...]

That will tend to be the case regardless of whether you keep holy word. Creatures with low hit dice are easy meat for all kinds of area spells, from fireball right on up.

This one spell really isn't as bad as you think, if you run it correctly. Remember that it's based on hit dice, not CR; remember that SR always applies; and remember that it's totally useless at creatures who stay out of range.

 

[DM-Rocco]

Use the 3rd edition version. It's balanced. The 3.5 version is categorically insane. Especially when you have caster-level addicts.
The guy who "updated" the 3rd edition spell system didn't know what he was doing.
I also suggest the 3rd edition versions of: darkness, forbiddance, geas and shapechange.
Actually I suggest 3rd edition core rules over 3.5 core rules but I've had one long debate recently and I'm not interested in another. (nor do I have time)

Your nuts.

That being said, I like a lot of stuff from 3.0, but I really like most of 3.5. I play mainly 3.5 cause there are some spells in 3.0 that are insane and 3.5 explains a lot of stuff correctly. I am more pissed at WOTC for having the knowledge of 3.5 when they released 3.0 and not just making one damn version than I am in debating you though.

I have just looked at the 3.0 version of Holy Word, that is a bit more to my liking for the game, it is more balanced. Unlike the Temporal Stasis 3.0/3.5 versions. 3.0 version is nuts, 3.5 is a bit more balanced, nice to see they got a spell closer to being correct in the 3.0.

Thanks for that heads up, it might just be the thing I am looking for.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Just out of curiosity what's wrong with a single targeted 9th level spell that costs 5000 GP a pop material components and has SR and a touch attack?
Holy word 3.5 has no cap in either HD, number of targets and doesn't require an attack roll at level 7 to boot.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

If the caster is Good, you might want to show him the chapter on good alignment in the Book of Exalted Deeds, in regards to slaughtering evil creatures wholesale without a second thought. While it might just be fine and dandy against demons/devils, slaughtering evil goblins (for example) in such a manner doesn't show a great "respect for life" and definitely eliminates any possibility for redemption. Obviously if the enemies are a real threat and are attacking the PCs outright, then less destructive options might not be available. But if the PCs in question are resorting to holy word as a first and last resort on a continuing basis, then perhaps you should call them on their alignment...

 

[Lord Pendragon]

If the caster is Good, you might want to show him the chapter on good alignment in the Book of Exalted Deeds, in regards to slaughtering evil creatures wholesale without a second thought. While it might just be fine and dandy against demons/devils, slaughtering evil goblins (for example) in such a manner doesn't show a great "respect for life" and definitely eliminates any possibility for redemption. Obviously if the enemies are a real threat and are attacking the PCs outright, then less destructive options might not be available. But if the PCs in question are resorting to holy word as a first and last resort on a continuing basis, then perhaps you should call them on their alignment...

I'd stop and think a minute before holding Good PCs to Exalted standards.

 

[Kunimatyu]

This spell is actually a serious problem in high-level Living Greyhawk play. With a caster-level-boosting ioun stone, beads of karma, and the feat that lets you channel turns to increase the caster level of a spell, you can have good clerics destroying enemies at +10 caster level (so usually 24+ hitdice) a pop. Makes combats boring, and if evil clerics use this trick at high levels with Blasphemy, it kills the entire party.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Someone (I forget who) has suggested that capping spells at level 20 eliminates a lot of the problems with level boosting effects. Not just with Holy Word, but other spells too.

With regard to the suggestion to use the 3.0 version of Holy Word, does anyone know if the 3.0 SRD is still available anywhere? Or at least the list of 3.0 spells? I have given away my 3.0 PHB, but now I want to reference the older version of spells like Holy Word and Temporal Stasis (the latter is too weak in 3.5, IMHO).

 

[gizmo33]

A group of 6 CR10 creatures should be an EL16. Fire giants qualify, but get relatively poor will saves and a Holy Word probably has a save DC of at least 21. The Will save of a fire giant is +5 so I think most will fail their save. But at 15 HD, the giants get deafened (I don't have 3.5 in front of me). I think deaf fire giants still do alot of stomping.

One question is how many other spells of the same level have the same capability. If there are none, then IMO that's a stronger case for the spell being broken. If there are others, then the PCs will move to using some other spell all of the time and you'll still be in the same boat. Before changing the spell it would make sense to go through the spell list and make sure nothing else is also broken in the same way.

 

[DungeonMaster]

With regard to the suggestion to use the 3.0 version of Holy Word, does anyone know if the 3.0 SRD is still available anywhere? Or at least the list of 3.0 spells? I have given away my 3.0 PHB, but now I want to reference the older version of spells like Holy Word and Temporal Stasis (the latter is too weak in 3.5, IMHO).

Here's a decent one:
http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html
I agree 3.5 temporal stasis is to weak, imprisonment as well.