• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

[Home Brew: Skill Challenges in 5E] What about Luck? Bardic Inspiration? Guidance?

schnee

First Post
Just a question for those of you who are using the 4E style 'Skill Challenges' to spice up your games. I didn't see much discussion about this in Google, so I'm wondering if anyone else can weigh in.

Assuming you do the Matt Colville approach:


  • The party must succeed at (X, Y, or Z) skill checks before (3) failures
  • Characters must have Proficiency in the skill to attempt each challenge
  • You present a set of challenges, and the players take turns solving them via narration and a skill roll

1) What do you do about spells that can trump the skill rolls entirely?
Do you allow them? If so, how do you rule on the mechanics of that?
Is success automatic, or a bonus on the roll, or resolved on a case-by-case basis?


  • Spellcasting i.e. using a Stone Shape to open a stuck door instead of an Athletics roll

2) How about in-game dice mechanics that can greatly affect the roll?
Do you allow them there or not? How has that worked out, either way?


  • Inspiration
  • Bardic Inspiration
  • Luck
  • Guidance Cantrip

Thanks in advance.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Just a question for those of you who are using the 4E style 'Skill Challenges' to spice up your games. I didn't see much discussion about this in Google, so I'm wondering if anyone else can weigh in.

Assuming you do the Matt Colville approach:


  • The party must succeed at (X, Y, or Z) skill checks before (3) failures
  • Characters must have Proficiency in the skill to attempt each challenge
  • You present a set of challenges, and the players take turns solving them via narration and a skill roll

1) What do you do about spells that can trump the skill rolls entirely?
Do you allow them? If so, how do you rule on the mechanics of that?
Is success automatic, or a bonus on the roll, or resolved on a case-by-case basis?

  • Spellcasting i.e. using a Stone Shape to open a stuck door instead of an Athletics roll

I think you've correctly identified, in part, how the D&D 4e style skill challenge goes against the D&D 5e paradigm. I love D&D 4e and I particularly love skill challenges (the WotC board were full of my advice on them plus loads of examples), but the players pushing to make ability checks in D&D 5e is not as much of a fit in this edition as it was in the previous one. People can play that way if they like it, of course, and the game isn't going to explode if they do, but I don't think that method works as smoothly in D&D 5e.

That all said, if someone is using this method anyway, I think that an ability check can be trumped by a good idea or a spell. Per the D&D 4e Essentials Rules Compendium, which in my view is the authority on skill challenges in that game, "A skill challenge should not replace the roleplaying, the puzzling, and the ingenuity that players put into handling those situations." In other words, grant automatic success if a player comes up with an idea or uses a resource that obviously overcomes the complication. Stone shape on that stuck door you mentioned should, in my opinion, definitely just be an automatic success.

2) How about in-game dice mechanics that can greatly affect the roll?
Do you allow them there or not? How has that worked out, either way?

  • Inspiration
  • Bardic Inspiration
  • Luck
  • Guidance Cantrip

Thanks in advance.

While I don't structure or deliver my skill challenges in the same way in this edition of the game, I fully expect that players will try to use these resources to increase their odds of success. After all, in D&D 4e, race or class features or utility powers could be used to modify the result of a skill check, plus the D&D 4e skill challenge mechanic included Advantages which could further be used by players to lower DCs, remove failures, and count one success as two (among other things). If one wants to port D&D 4e skill challenges into this edition, I see no reason why these options should not also be permitted.
 
Last edited:

schnee

First Post
I think you've correctly identified, in part, how the D&D 4e style skill challenge goes against the D&D 5e paradigm.

If it's good enough for Matt Colville (the King of Kickstarter) to steal, it's good enough for me. :)

While I don't structure or deliver my skill challenges in the same way in this edition of the game

Ooh, you say 'in the same way', so you do something similar. Care to share how do you structure them? I'm really curious. We've done a few of them in 5E, and they've integrated seamlessly into the flow of the game without characters even knowing they were happening - and they've added a nice new structure for certain non-combat phases of the game.

in D&D 4e, race or class features or utility powers could be used to modify the result of a skill check, plus the D&D 4e skill challenge mechanic included Advantages which could further be used by players to lower DCs, remove failures, and count one success as two (among other things). If one wants to port D&D 4e skill challenges into this edition, I see no reason why these options should not also be permitted.

Noted and appreciated. Thanks!
 
Last edited:

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Ooh, you say 'in the same way', so you do something similar. Care to share how do you structure them? I'm really curious. We've done a few of them in 5E, and they've integrated seamlessly into the flow of the game without characters even knowing they were happening - and they've added a nice new structure for certain non-combat phases of the game.

I don't have any particular care about players knowing they're in a discrete challenge or not. I mean, they know when they're in a combat challenge, so I don't see any reason why they shouldn't know they're in an exploration or social interaction challenge which is where a D&D 5e skill challenge would sit (even if it's in the context of a combat challenge). In fact, I would go so far as to say I prefer the players know it. That's because I don't like "freeform" challenges. Those often feel like the pacing is off and it's more about playing out a scene till the DM is satisfied than overcoming a structured challenge that has a tangible pacing mechanism and hard victory and defeat conditions. I feel like I earn my victory in a structured challenge, whereas with a freeform challenge it feels to me like bs'ing the DM until we move onto the next thing.

So that explains why I prefer a structured challenge and we can draw on D&D 4e skill challenges for inspiration on how to structure it; however, skill challenges in that game come with that game's assumptions, such as players asking to make skill checks, DCs being set absent a statement of goal and approach, a set number of primary and secondary skills to be used, different math that determines the difficulty, among other things. D&D 5e is different. It is for these reasons that I set my challenges up as follows.

For prep, I set the overall goal of the challenge and what it looks like if the PCs win and what it looks like if they lose. If applicable, I make a note of how much XP this challenge is worth. Then I write down a set number of complications that must be overcome to achieve success in the overall goal. The more complications that must be overcome, the harder it is. PCs must overcome all of the complications to succeed on the overall goal. Sometimes, that may mean ruling success at a cost - the PC fails the check, but still overcomes the complication with a cost. The party may end up with a Pyrrhic victory by the time they finish. (Getting some XP takes the edge off though!) I do prefer success at a cost in these kinds of challenges because I feel it mirrors combat challenges better - you survive, get some XP, but you've lost some resources. It also allows for a non-combat challenge to sub in for a combat challenge when trying to balance things around the adventuring day.

In play, I describe the environment and seek buy-in on the goal to be achieved. Once that's settled, I present the first complication and ask "What do you do?" They describe what they want to do. I determine whether that has an uncertain outcome and, if it does, set a DC and call for an ability check. If it's not uncertain, then they just succeed or fail, no roll. As mentioned above, it may be a simple pass/fail or success at a cost on a failure. I then narrate the results of the adventurers' actions and repeat, starting with the next complication to be overcome. Once we've run through all the complications, we'll know whether they've achieved victory in overcoming the challenge or suffered defeat. We then play on in the aftermath.

This method, I feel, is more in line with the D&D 5e paradigm than the one Colville suggests. I prefer everything working the same way and moving in the same direction. If I ran the game and suddenly some parts of the game had it where players were asking to make checks against DCs that were decided well before they ever described what they wanted to do, it would stand in stark contrast to every other part of the game in a very strange way. So the approach I describe here is such that you get the benefit of the skill challenge structure, with its better pacing, well-thought out situations, and firm resolution method, without going against what I see as the D&D 5e grain.
 
Last edited:

Tony Vargas

Legend
1) What do you do about spells that can trump the skill rolls entirely?
You only have to look as far as the basic pdf waxing rhapsodic over the role of magic in the game for the answer to that question to be clear: of course spells that trump a skill check if not a whole challenge should be allowed to do so.

Really, it might be better to think of an SC in 5e as a back-up for when the right spell is unavailable.

2) How about in-game dice mechanics that can greatly affect the roll?
5e's been pretty good about keeping the lid on BA, expertise is probably the biggest offender, and it would be weird and class-undermining to exclude it - so don't exclude other, lesser, sins against BA.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
You only have to look as far as the basic pdf waxing rhapsodic over the role of magic in the game for the answer to that question to be clear: of course spells that trump a skill check if not a whole challenge should be allowed to do so.

Really, it might be better to think of an SC in 5e as a back-up for when the right spell is unavailable.
Cause magic is always better don't you know.

And did someone mention yea old having a "good" idea (sometimes called the being the DMs girl friend trick) Just kidding that works in every rpg.
 

schnee

First Post
...

This method, I feel, is more in line with the D&D 5e paradigm than the one Colville suggests...

Thank you, you've given me a lot to think about.

I didn't play 4e (I wasn't playing TTRPGs at that time), but I've always admired what it brought to the game from afar, and I'm shameless about experimenting with different mechanics to see how they can expand the table's enjoyment.

And, yes, I'm the type that will spend the time to make a given mechanic 'feel' right within the rest of the system, so your perspective is helpful to me.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Thank you, you've given me a lot to think about.

I didn't play 4e (I wasn't playing TTRPGs at that time), but I've always admired what it brought to the game from afar, and I'm shameless about experimenting with different mechanics to see how they can expand the table's enjoyment.

And, yes, I'm the type that will spend the time to make a given mechanic 'feel' right within the rest of the system, so your perspective is helpful to me.

Cool. Yes, the key difference is the general expectation in my experience is that in D&D 4e you push mechanics first and from that generate fiction. It was amazing at that - follow the rules, mechanics first, and you will generate some good stuff. The DM steps in every now and again when something doesn't make sense, but otherwise, you cleave to the rules.

In D&D 5e, so far as I can tell, you create fiction and maybe the mechanics come into play to resolve any uncertainties, if the DM says so. That's practically the opposite of D&D 4e. A player in D&D 4e is expected to push a skill check and the DM is encouraged to accept it. In D&D 5e, the rules don't seem to support that in the same way. These are important differences that I think are frequently overlooked in discussions about how to do 4e-type skill challenges in D&D 5e. Looking to D&D 4e for a starting place is good - but knowing these key differences will tell you what you need to keep, change, or discard.

If you come up with something different than what I suggest, I'd be interested in taking a look at it.
 


Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top