[Homebrew] In a godless campaign what do you with clerics?

[sunrisekid]

So much great advice here! I'm grateful. I'll do a big reply to each point that corresponds to the "comic book logic" dilemma I've proposed. Thanks for your help everyone!

I had an idea for a setting where clerics tapped into certain universal principles (which happened to co-incide with the various domains - funny how that worked out) and studied them in order to gain magic power. This study was on a more intuitive level than the intellectual study of a wizard (hence, Wisdom-based - it's more about connecting with and "grokking" the domain than learning facts).... The point of this was to make the clerical toolkit available without necessarily including religions and churches in the same context.

I like this because it also does not limit player options, which I prefer to avoid (unless there's a specific story element that requires it).

A D&D with clerics but no gods sounds like the D&D you got for BECMI before the Immortals were introduced.

Oh yeah! I forgot about that, thanks for the reminder.

In the Lankhmarr supplement for AD&D, the cleric was just another type of wizard with a different flavour, not unlike the 5e bard and the warlock... Taken further, you could forget everything about arcane magic/divine magic and have each class exist as its own magical tradition, with or without an associated ethos.

I'm leaning towards this. I like that spell casting classes have their own turf, or traditions, something that makes them feel as distinct as possible from one another.

In a godless game, the clerics stats, spells, skills, proficiencies, starting equipment and features could remain the same; but his class name (and spell names), backstory, appearance, philosophy, language and raison d'être would be different. Why bother? I might do such a thing because I want a godless world, but I recognize the mechanical simplicity of playing a standard game with a magical healer, and I cannot be bothered to design a whole new class of arcane healer or to analyze some third party class for broken rules.

Exactly, I want to avoid tinkering with mechanics as much as possible to avoid unforseen consequences. I like a gritty game as much as the next Howard fan but I have players whom I want to keep coming back, satisfied they're playing a game they want to play.

Have you read what the DMG has to say about changing the way religion works? Starting on page 10, it gives ideas about to do this sort of thing and explains how clerics might exist.

One of the interesting things it says right at the start is this:

You can readily choose not to associate domains with deities at all, too. Whatever makes sense to you will work.

TBH, somehow I missed this. And this is the approach that I will take. I'll let the player provide more narrative as to how/why their character is such an expert with their domain. Easier for me, keeps options in the game. I am inclined to re-fluff the Cleric in order to avoid heavy-handed tinkering and obstruction of character options. By describing the cleric in terms of an alternate method of tapping into magic I've by-passed the "divinity" aspect. The player can have a hand in describing how their character become an expert in their domain. Something that is an alternative to studiousness, selling one's soul, having mysterious bloodline, etc.

As to the issue of religions, I simply prefer leaving that to the level of pure narrative without game mechanics. Religions and mystery cults may abound, in all shape and manner, and if a player wants to be part of one then the Acolyte background will suffice, which can work with any character class. And if one of the players really wants to play a "Cleric" of some domain with the Acolyte background then I'll have full circle, haha!

 

[Zardnaar]

Doh dp.

 

[Zardnaar]

Erm there have been godless clerics since 2E and clerics without technical gods since B/X and 1E (archfiends, immortals)

2E had them without any god replacement either, elemental clerics on Athas. Usually it required a philosophy that was strong enough to grant power or some sort of power source such as the Athasian clerics. 3E you could just be godless RAW (except on FR). You could be a godless cleric of the sun for example, Druids could just get power from nature no god required.

If the gods are dead the PC clerics could have a divine spark in the or perhaps gods blood rained on the world and if you have it you can gain access to cleric spells.

 

[5ekyu]

If your campaign world had a different take on the pantheon, how do you handle the cleric class? If there are no gods, then logically there would be no clerics, possibly no paladins. Some players really like these classes but where do you draw a line between a campaign world with a certain story element and what is printed/RAW in the game manuals?

This is not meant to be a cleric-bashing thread, nor about wrong-fun, but more about campaign/story management and player buy-in. Happy to hear your opinions.

Well, if there are no gods and clerics are followers of gods given powers by them - no clerics.

Sure, you can water down the setting choice by redefining clerics to be drawing their power from "fluffy wuffies" and call them whatever you like but you have just undercut your original step.

If i were to run godless, i would definitely allow the more intermediate powers - celestials, fiends, etc to serve not as gods but as patrons - and point out the divine soul sorcerer, celestial patrons and other racial choices for healing options. Druids would draw from more generic nature or fey.

 

[aco175]

I was thinking that god=science. Just reskin clerics as scientists or alchemists. Maybe the spells are in potion form and the cleric heals you by administrating a potion. He throws pyramid crystals or such on you to give you bless. Flame strike is just a set of mirrors that harness the sun. Mechanically, most things should work the same.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

I think someone else mentioned this, but making clerics into warlocks can work, assuming the Patrons still exist in your world also.

Another thing I have always liked from back in the 1st Ed AD&D days is the source of the power for the different levels of cleric spells. I do not have that PHB available right now, so I am sure I am not remembering the breakdown exactly, but basically, clerics powered 1st and 2nd level spells with their own power of faith and belief, 3rd-5th levels spells were powered by a deity's angels/subordinates/etc, and 6th and 7th levels spells were powered by the deity itself. So this system could be adapted to a "godless" setting where the populace still believes the gods exist, and some of them believe so strongly that they can cast most low level spells and cantrips. And then a Patron, or some other powerful entity, could step in and pretend to be a god and supply the power for the mid-range spells.

 

[Staffan]

Eberron took more of the Al-Qadim approach and had pantheons of gods worshiped in different ways and under different names depending on what culture you were from. They also had ancestor worship, an ancient half-dragon lich who was the head and focus of her own religion, and more, but also stressed that people follow religions for different reasons, and allowed that good people could follow incredibly evil organizations and vice versa.

Point of order: Vol is not the focus of worship for the Blood of Vol. She's more of a revered figure. If you'll excuse the parallells to Christianity, Vol is not their equivalent of God/Jesus - she's their equivalent of Paul or Moses, as a revered figure responsible for teaching the flock.

The core tenet of the Blood of Vol is that blood is divinity. So every living being that has blood in their veins has a spark of divinity in them, but to prevent mortals from reaching their full potential the gods have inflicted mortality on them, and cursed them to have their souls waste away on the plane of Dollurh. Only by exploring the Divinity Within can a person escape that fate, by creating their own afterlife or possibly ascending to godhood.

Intelligent undead have abandoned their chances of godhood/a self-created paradise in order to escape death, so they are seen as people who have made a terrible sacrifice in order to guide the flock.

 

[Tersival]

Here's another example. I have a character. I decide that I'm going to ignore the fluff of the character's stats and play them as though they have all 20s because I don't like the fluff of the stats.


At that point I ask, what are we doing? What is the goal here?

That sounds like either trolling (very uncool) or a gross misunderstanding of crunch vs fluff.


If it defines a bonus or class ability/power/spell, something that boils down to dice rolled or hit points adjusted, thats the crunchy part that developers spend ages analysing and balancing so races and classes are more or less balanced.


Gods/No gods is classic fluff. Regardless of whether cleric powers come from the "gods", from "inner faith", or different schools of wizardy, none of these change gaem balance, only flavor, and if that flavor tickles your fancy enjoy!


I personally find bards and warlocks much easier to conceptualise as variants of sorcerers, drawing upon magic instinctively rather than through entertaining or devotion to a patron. Doesn't change class abilities one bit.

In the Lankhmarr supplement for AD&D, the cleric was just another type of wizard with a different flavour, not unlike the 5e bard and the warlock. They had a white magic/black magic divide, but that shouldn’t be necessary.

Thank you! I knew there was a setting that treated clerical magic as a form of wizardry (more or less), but do you think I could put my finger on it? Was driving me nuts.

 

[Celebrim]

First an aside: paladins don't need to worship a deity, they get their power from their oath.

But where does their oath get power from?

 

[Celebrim]

So, by 'no gods' do you mean, 'no magical power that has its source in making a pact or bargain with a supernatural entity'?

Or to put not to fine a point on it, when you say 'no gods' what actually is leaving the setting?