D&D 5E Homebrew: Making all abilities more valuable. Adding two abilities to most mechanics.

[Horwath]

This idea is simple.

To prevent dumping one or two scores for boosting one or two to max without much penalty, why don't we add 2 ability modifier on most mechanics in the game.


1. Melee attacks;

Melee and thrown attack roll: str + dex
Melee/thrown 1H damage str×2
Melee 2H damage str×3
Finesse/thrown 1H damage str + dex
Finesse 2H damage str + dex×2


2. Ranged attack;

Ranged attack roll: dex + wis
Ranged damage bow: str + dex
Ranged damage crossbow: dex


3. Spell attack/damage/DC;

barbarian(if something comes up): con+cha
cleric: wis+cha
druid: int+wis
fighter-EK: int+wis
monk: con+wis
paladin: wis+cha
rogue-AT: int+cha
ranger: int+wis
sorcerer: con+cha
warlock: int+cha
wizard: int+wis


4. Initiative;

dex+int+wis


5. Armor class;

dex+int


6. Saving throws;

Fortitude(current str&con saves): str+con
Reflex(current dex saves): dex+int
Will(current int,wis&cha save): wis+cha


7. skills:

Athletics: str+dex
Acrobatics: str+dex
Stealth: dex+wis
Sleight of hand: dex+cha

Arcana: int×2
History: int×2
Nature: int×2
Religion: int×2
Investigation: int+wis

animal handling: wis+cha
insight: int+wis
Medicine: int+wis
perception: int+wis
Survival: int+wis

Deception: wis+cha
intimidation: wis+cha
performance: wis+cha
persuation: wis+cha


8. tools:
this would depend on the tool mostly;

thief tools: dex+int
crafting tools: int+wis
musical inst: int or wis + cha
games would be either dex+wis or int+wis or wis+cha, depending on the game.
some craft tools might replace int or wis with dex. or even str or con if it heavy manual labor involved with the tools.


As an average modifier on abilities (with point buy and racial bonuses) is +1(round down). If we double it will not come even close to +3(unless you play a standard human with 13,13,13,13,13,10 point buy, but this version is aimed at rewarding all around general characters).

All we need to do is add +1 to AC/DC(hehe) of monsters if we are too lazy to recalculate DCs with 2 scores included.
Same goes for attack and damage rolls. +2 damage for 2H attacks

If monsters are feeling to weak because of little extra damage from PCs, add 1 or 2 HP per HD.

PCs have enough HPs right now, even for this variant.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Re: "Why don't we" I think the simple answer is that "if we do we have to redo the math on virtually every element of the game, and create dozens of derived stats where previously we could use stats directly". A good example is initiative. Previously that was just DEX plus the odd weird bonus. Now we need to go through and add all three stats together for every single monster in the game and create a derived stat of "initiative" (which monsters don't usually have - only if they have mods to it do they have it, typically).

We also need to re-examine tons and tons of stuff in the game. For example. making AC mod be DEX + INT seems okay (if weird in that a Wizard is likely to be as good at dodging as a Rogue, possibly better), but what about, say, Barbarians, who currently derive AC from CON + DEX? Or Monks with WIS + DEX? Keeping them on that is unfair, because previously that was an advantage. So they go to maybe 2xCON + DEX and WIS + 2xDEX or something?

But you have to make dozens, maybe hundreds of decisions like that. You have to hunt down and find abilities that let you add stat mods to stuff that you normally don't, and decide what to do with them. Like, if a class lets you add WIS or CHA to your Initiative (I think both can happen), does it change to 2x that stat, or not change, or 3x that stat (which would be the only way it was "equal" to it's previous relative value).

I haven't carefully considered the combat implications, but I'm pretty sure they're going to be pretty extreme, and open up wild new exploits and ways to do vastly more damage than before.

In short we don't do it because it breaks the math of the entire game, and requires fiddling with hundreds of abilities throughout the game, as well as recalculating every monster in the game. I do see you allow for people being too lazy for the latter, but your mods are WAY too small, because PCs don't have +1 on their actual primary stats, and will now be optimizing differently and having even bigger bonuses than before.

 

[DEFCON 1]

A much easier way to prevent the dumping of some scores and the boosting of others is to just change what numbers you are allowed to buy in Point Buy. If you don't want players to buy 8s and 9s and 14s and 15s... just make a buy chart that is only 10, 11, 12, & 13. That way you can get what you want apparently... all players in a much shallower modifier pool where everyone is more average across the board and nothing is "dumped".

But then again... not having 8s and 9s but keeping 10s and 11s only just means you have removed a single -1 from possible checks anyone makes. Is having players with one less point in modifier really impacting anyone's game that much? I'll be honest... I just don't see it. One person's +2 versus another's +1 means little when you are adding a 1 to 20 point swing from the d20.

 

[Fenris-77]

I think there might be some middle ground here. It might be useful to take a wider look at what gets dumped and why, and then work to fix that, rather than changing everything. STR gets dumped because barring GWM/PAM build DEX is strictly superior as a stat. INT gets dumped because of, usually, CHA and/or WIS (specifically for Perception). I'd also take a look at how common or important the rolls in question are. Combat, Initiative, and Perception are good targets, as is social interaction.

If you add STR to ranged damage, and WIS/INT to initiative, and perhaps even STR to AC. You get a lot of what you want. Cap the mod a +5 no matter how you get there and people won't have the same incentive to max and dump stats. Allow the same for WIS/INT added to social interaction is some fashion and you're done. I guess I'm suggesting that the same goal can be reached while changing less. I do like the idea though, I find the huge mechanical advantage to maxing stats an annoying design feature of 5E.

 

[Krachek]

I stop reading at strx3

 

[Xeviat]

The problem with dump stats isn't that players dump a stat, it's when particular stats become the common dump stats. Str, Int, and Cha get dumped by classes that aren't using them. Int and Cha get less dumped by heavy RP groups.

Had they made all the saving throws as common as each other, and tied something substantial to Int and Cha, this would happen less.

 

[GMMichael]

In short we don't do it because it breaks the math of the entire game, and requires fiddling with hundreds of abilities throughout the game, as well as recalculating every monster in the game. I do see you allow for people being too lazy for the latter, but your mods are WAY too small, because PCs don't have +1 on their actual primary stats, and will now be optimizing differently and having even bigger bonuses than before.

Another +2 on some rolls breaks the math of the entire game? Monsters don't need recalculating...you could just add their proficiency bonus (challenge rating = character level?) to all rolls.

I think optimizing differently was the point, and I don't see players complaining about bigger bonuses.

The problem with dump stats isn't that players dump a stat, it's when particular stats become the common dump stats. Str, Int, and Cha get dumped by classes that aren't using them. Int and Cha get less dumped by heavy RP groups.

Had they made all the saving throws as common as each other, and tied something substantial to Int and Cha, this would happen less.

Is an 8 what we're calling a dump stat here? That's odd - I call it "being human" (or whatever your ancestry might be). I guess that can be seen as a problem...

If Intelligence and Charisma don't get called on much for saves, that's the DM's fault, not the game's fault. Saves are defenses, and it's up to the DM to decide if PCs are attacked with INT or CHA. Put the PCs in a really vicious tea party once in a while, and see who comes out looking like a buffoon or a wallflower.

 

[Horwath]

If Intelligence and Charisma don't get called on much for saves, that's the DM's fault, not the game's fault. Saves are defenses, and it's up to the DM to decide if PCs are attacked with INT or CHA. Put the PCs in a really vicious tea party once in a while, and see who comes out looking like a buffoon or a wallflower.

there is simply not enough options to test int and cha, without the danger to make it boring.

Yes, you can put intellect devourer behing every other door in the dungeon, but it will get pretty old pretty fast.

they made 6 saves instead of 3 in hope that it would get all 6 abilities more useful but it fell flat.

having 3 saves with 2 abilities(they dont have to add, they can even take average to keep the math) is better usage. Or even 13th age with 2 saves, each using middle score out of 3.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Another +2 on some rolls breaks the math of the entire game? Monsters don't need recalculating...you could just add their proficiency bonus (challenge rating = character level?) to all rolls.

Pretty much, yeah, and it's not going to be "+2". Even at level 1, in many cases it will be +3 or even +6. At higher levels, as you stats increase, it's going to increase more, not less.

Monsters already have a Proficiency Bonus factored in, so presumably mean "add that again". But currently it's not added to everything. Only things they're proficient in. If you start adding it "to everything" that's actually going to make more of a mess, not less, especially with higher-CR monsters.

(And year CR = level for proficiency bonus, except 0-1/2 CR = +2 like CR1, and it keeps scaling after CR20 all the way up to CR30, which has +9)

I think optimizing differently was the point, and I don't see players complaining about bigger bonuses.

Realistically, it just means players are going to choose slightly different stats. It devalues CON massively and makes DEX even more of a "god-stat" than it already is. Also if you don't think a greatsword going from 2d6+3 to 2d6+9 is going to break stuff, I dunno what to tell you. By level 8 it'll probably be 2d6+15. GWM will be far easier to use, too.