Homosexuality in the Forgotten Realms

[dragonlordofpoondari]

I think time is no factor for sexual orientation.

Some people do change over time, though. I consciously try to reinvent myself as I go along ... just like Madonna. Once a person decides he knows everything and stops growing, questioning, and challenging beliefs and assumptions, I think this leads to complacencey. These people seem more like zombies or robots than thinking, feeling, fully alive and engaged individuals. I constantly work for change and self-improvement, because I'm pretty sure that who I am now is kind of lame.

As a counter-example (intended not to disprove your point, but to illustrate that it is not axiomatic), there is the all-too-common case of men who marry, have kids, and then decide in their 40's or 50's that it's time to go gay. This happens a lot, especially around my neck of the woods. So much so that there is a kind of stereotype about it.

It takes a long time to get acquainted with one's self. Intellectual honesty is awfully hard work. All this is complicated by the fact that people change over time. There are certainly people who are lucky enough or simple enough to know themselves very well at a very young age. I am not one of these blessed few.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Could be. It could also be that homosexuality is completely alien to elves. Something those depraved humans do and which no elf would do, not in 10.000 years.

Well, it's established that humans will mate with practically anything: evidence is to be found in half-orcs, half-dragons, etc. That elves and humans produce half-elves is probably a function of humans looking somewhat like elves, rather than the other way around. Elves aren't known to knock boots with scalykind the way humans are. It could be that they're more discriminating even when it comes to mating with their own species.

Edit: Considering that, it could be that there's not just little homosexuality among elves, but actually multiple mating types. Perhaps elves are extremely picky about the characteristics of their partners: must be male, must have dark hair, must have light skin, etc. This could explain why elves have so many subraces. It's the by-product of what is essentially a fairly intense degree of sexual selection.

 

[dragonlordofpoondari]

500-700 years (the span a D&D elf can expect to live)

Not everyone plays 3.5 either, young man. According to my 1st ed DMG on page 13, gray elves live up to 2000 years. Something I happily house-ruled into my 3.5 campaign.

So there.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Some people do change over time, though.

I'm not saying they don't. I'm saying that this doesn't mean that all elves - or even the majority of elves - will change their orientation.

 

[fusangite]

Now, I really doubt that. Elves are humanoids. Their biology will be quite similar to that of humans. The fact that there are half-elves is further evidence that at least elves (and orcs) are very similar in those matters to humans.

Well, first off, elves are fictional, quasi-magical creatures and can be as similar or dissimilar biologically to humans in the game as a GM wishes to make them. Furthermore, every GM/DM has a different interpretation of how biology, ecology, physics, etc. works in their world -- and a number of these divergent interpretations can be sustained without changing a single syllable of the core rules.

If there is no consensus on whether air in a D&D world is constituted of oxygen, nitrogen, argon, etc or whether air is an indivisable element, I don't see how there can be much of a standard interpretation of how biology works.

Furthermore, I think there is another pretty crucial problem in this debate. People seem to be conflating the existence of the cultural category "homosexual" and the idea of "sexual orientation" with the presence of same-sex relations. Same-sex relations have existed in human societies since the moment we became a species; but the idea of gay, bi and straight as identity categories or the existence of sexual orientation as an independent variable is pretty much unique to contemporary society.

Most societies have tended to view sexual orientation within (not orthogonal to, as in our society) the matrix of gender. Catchers were women. Pitchers were men. If I were running (God forbid!) an FR game, that's how I would run it. NPCs might have sexual relations with individuals of the same sex but they wouldn't understand ideas like gay and straight.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Not everyone plays 3.5 either, young man.

They don't have to. But these are forums mainly for d20, which means that the current rules count unless the discussion is agreed to be about older rules, or other game systems. I don't see "1E/2E/OD&D" beside the topic, so it is assumed that this is about 3.5e. Under current rules, elves won't get much older than 700, most won't make it that far.

I frankly couldn't care less what 1st Ed said. I couldn't care less what anyone houseruled. You can do whatever they want in your game, but those houserules don't make very good arguments.

 

[dragonlordofpoondari]

I'm not saying they don't. I'm saying that this doesn't mean that all elves - or even the majority of elves - will change their orientation.

Right on. Then you and I are of one mind here.

I frankly couldn't care less what 1st Ed said. I couldn't care less what anyone houseruled. You can do whatever they want in your game, but those houserules don't make very good arguments.

Got your dander up! I was just teasing you since you decided to correct me and quote THE RULES. Still friends?

... smart stuff ...

Interesting points. I like them.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Well, first off, elves are fictional, quasi-magical creatures and can be as similar or dissimilar biologically to humans in the game as a GM wishes to make them. Furthermore, every GM/DM has a different interpretation of how biology, ecology, physics, etc. works in their world -- and a number of these divergent interpretations can be sustained without changing a single syllable of the core rules.

I'd still say that humanoid races don't have any "funky" biological features humans don't have, or they'd probably be monstrous humanoids. And, as I said, they seem to be compatible with humans and able to naturally reproduce.

That and everything official written about them strongly suggests that elves are just like real world humans in those things, at least officially (houserules can get as funky as they like, but they're houserules)

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Got your dander up! I was just teasing you since you decided to correct me and quote THE RULES. Still friends?

I was concerned for you! I thought you'd turn into another diaglo!

 

[dragonlordofpoondari]

I was concerned for you! I thought you'd turn into another diaglo!

Yay! Cool people are cool! I love enworld.