Homosexuality in the Forgotten Realms

[Kae'Yoss]

Yay! Cool people are cool! I love enworld.

Yeah! For one thing, I don't know any other big RPG boards you could have a discussion about homosexuality in fantasy products that reach over 100 posts without people starting to insult each other, people with orientations differing from their own, any game parts involved in the discussing, random passersby, and who-knows-what.

 

[fusangite]

I'd still say that humanoid races don't have any "funky" biological features humans don't have, or they'd probably be monstrous humanoids.

It is clear that humanoids have more in common with humans than monstrous humanoids do. But the basis for this commonality is unclear.

And, as I said, they seem to be compatible with humans and able to naturally reproduce.

Yes. But given that what nature is an how it works is up for grabs, I'm not sure you can sustain going as far as you do here.

That and everything official written about them strongly suggests that elves are just like real world humans

First of all, there is a pretty big gap between "official" and "core." I am making my argument from the perspective of core. I'm not sure what utility you are getting from defining the core conception of a race on the setting-specific, non-core descriptions of them.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I still don't think that a human would turn bisexual after living an unnaturally long period of time. Not if he wasn't basically open to the idea from the start.

My point was that with their naturally long lifespan, they probably have a very different perspective on monogamy & casual flings than we "mayfly" humans.

On the one hand, they mature more slowly, and might view casual sex as an abomination, having few partners and/or possibly mating for life.

OTOH, with 2000 years to think about things, they may well feel pretty frisky.

However, even with that lifespan, we know they haven't overrun the world with offspring like humans, goblins or orcs have, meaning they have some kind of combination of a fairly sophisticated view of the environment (a zero-pop growth policy), a strong commitment to sexual self restraint, contraceptives, or an inherently limited fertility cycle.

Remember that Vulcans of Star Trek fame are also long-lived, with life spans similar to that of D&D Dwarves...and they only feel the mating urge every 7 years.

Or the Immortals of Highlander- only able to bear children after earning the right in combat.

The likely results of a race with a 2000 year lifespan with, say, 1800 of those years being fertile and an 18 month gestation period is ecological armageddon.

Quote:

They could even be hermaphroditic or, like some RW animals, female for a certain part of their life, and (possibly) male for other parts. Elven sexuality and reproduction may even involve completely different processes- one could be entirely biological, and the other may require magic, for instance. (Consider Storm Constantine's Wraethu, for instance.)

Now, I really doubt that. Elves are humanoids. Their biology will be quite similar to that of humans. The fact that there are half-elves is further evidence that at least elves (and orcs) are very similar in those matters to humans.

1) Just because 2 things look alike doesn't mean they are alike- it merely means they have similar environmental needs. The Cleaner Wrasse and the Sabre-toothed Blenny look nearly identical, but the first lives on the parasites it cleans from other fish, while the latter takes advantage of its resemblance and takes chunks out of the fish waiting to be cleaned. Its called convergent evolution. You see it in Sea Snakes & Eels, Snakes & Legless Skinks, Viceroy and Monarch butterflies, and other species.

2) Hermaphrodism exists in primates- its rare, but it exists. In elves, it could be the norm.

3) The Half- races are, IMHO, merely evidence of the effect of the influence of magic upon genetics. Personally, I'm dumping them in the campaign I'm designing now, and I'm leaning towards axing them from all my games.

A PC may have a bloodline that crosses racial barriers, but its because of long lost magic from a time in the distant, distant path, but there won't be any recent additions.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

2) Hermaphrodism exists in primates- its rare, but it exists. In elves, it could be the norm.

Not in core rules, or they'd have stated it. There might be the occasional aberration, just like with humans, though.

3) The Half- races are, IMHO, merely evidence of the effect of the influence of magic upon genetics.

It's not as if it were unheard-of in our world. There's things like mules and ligers.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Not in core rules, or they'd have stated it.

This is all pretty much in the realm of campaign-specific discussion.

 

[Ulrick]

To answer the original question, there is an essay titled "ON SEX AND SEXUALITY IN THE REALMS" that talks about the rate homosexuals among adventuring parties being high.

In can be found in the "Complete Guide to Unlawful Carnal Knowledge For Fantasy Roleplaying Games." The essay is about half-way down past the sexual diseases and insanities tables.

http://fringe.davesource.com/Fringe/Entertainment/Games/Info/RPG_Carnal_Guide.txt

Of course, it is meant for mature audiences (whatever that means).

Have fun.

 

[paradox42]

Wouldn't agree to that. There are high-str fighters, and while an elf will, on average, have 2 less points of con than a human in the same role, that doesn't mean that they can't be tough - they're just slightly less tough than a human. Still, a fighter can easily start with 14 con.

And if you have a wood elf, then they're actually stronger than a human in that role.

Not all elves get weapon finesse.

I said nothing about ability scores, I said they don't have a "robust frame" which is a reference to appearance. Even high-STR fighters might be thinly built, and certainly the portrayals of FR elves show them as being generally thin folks. The most muscular-appearing one I've seen in any pictures is Ryld, the Drow fighter in the War of the Spider Queen series. The novels specifically describe him as being "unusually robust" and "like a brutish human" in appearance, quite unlike an average Drow male. He appears on the cover of the fifth book, Annihilation, and even there he's pretty thin by human standards. Very very muscular and athletic, yes, but also quite thin. The "muscular definition" part of my earlier statement does imply a lower-than-maximum STR score though, I grant you that point.

I still don't think that a human would turn bisexual after living an unnaturally long period of time. Not if he wasn't basically open to the idea from the start.

Could be. It could also be that homosexuality is completely alien to elves. Something those depraved humans do and which no elf would do, not in 10.000 years.

Interesting. Projecting prejudices, here? Or just arguing for the sake of argument? You're being quite forceful in your insistence that homosexuality doesn't happen among elves. And yet...

Now, I really doubt that. Elves are humanoids. Their biology will be quite similar to that of humans. The fact that there are half-elves is further evidence that at least elves (and orcs) are very similar in those matters to humans.

...here you cite their similarity to humans. Now, we know beyond any doubt that humans have a significant percentage of pure-homosexuals and bisexuals of various degrees among them. Since elves are so similar to humans, even to the point of being genetically compatible with them, it therefore stands to reason that elves will also have a significant percentage of homosexuals and bisexuals, does it not?

 

[paradox42]

I'm not saying they don't. I'm saying that this doesn't mean that all elves - or even the majority of elves - will change their orientation.

I am one who subscribes to the idea that orientation change is not possible- largely because I tried it myself back in high school, and ultimately had to admit failure. However, I will point to the fact that many men in the modern world who are in fact homosexuals by orientation, marry women due to social pressures and only end up finally coming out of the closet in their 40s and 50s- as dragonlordofpoondari noted above. They are not straight men, despite being married and (presumably) exclusively having sex with their wives; they are gay men who are simply adopting straight behavior for however long it takes them to work through their personal issues.

With that said, it is fairly clear that who one has sex with is not entirely a function of orientation. Orientation is what one desires; sex is what one actually does. A straight elf, conceivably, might well decide to try a homosexual experience once, for whatever reason one might try something new and different. This does not make the elf in any way "less straight," it just makes the elf more open-minded and experienced. Likewise, a homosexual elf might try it with the other gender once, just because- but this does not make the elf any less gay.

 

[Cameron]

OK, first off: What's a Diaglo?


Secondly: Does *everybody* have a big, hairy, 300+lb *male* in their group that plays nothing but a lesbian female rogue/Half-Celestial???!!!

I had thought I was just the poor schmuck that pulled the short straw with regards to players...

 

[paradox42]

...a big, hairy, 300+lb *male*

This, BTW, meets the definition of "bear."