Honestly, if WoTC didn't create it would 4e be D&D?

[Zaruthustran]

My thesis is that (and I am not attempting to insult anyone here) if any other company such as Paizo, Green Ronin, Mongoose, Goodman Games, Troll Lord Games, etc. created a game with the full panapoly of 4e's new mechanics very, very few people would be dumping 3.5 D&D to play this new system....
I truly believe that the vast majority of D&D players would shrug their shoulders and think, "Cool new game system witrh some nice mechanics but I'll stick with D&D."

Well, of course. "D&D" is not a set of mechanics. It's a brand.

 

[Heselbine]

Heselbine; MY experience is from back in the early 80s and it all depended upon what your FLGS stocked back then, as to what you could get hold of. I was in Tunbridge Wells (Kent) and to get anything special you had to order it from the US, it took ages and was very expensive.

I didn't know a single gamer in my area who played D&D; all of us played Tunnels and Trolls, Traveller, even Runequest. Partly it was preference though because we preferred the lite systems then as well. I gamed in three groups across Kent and none of them played D&D.

Weird how different things were just across the border. I guess without the internet, things were much more compartmentalised.

OK - I guess I was lucky to have access to games shops in London and Brighton.

 

[Ydars]

Heselbine; I also notice that you are a little older than me (and probably had more money and were more mobile back in the early 80s). I was only about 14 at the time I am talking about. Strangely though, it was still the case until I moved to Birmingham in about 1989. Up here there seem to be lots of D&Ders.

 

[naturaltwenty]

D&D is one of those beasts that has been around long enough to symbolize a brand, multiple rules-sets and multiple-aspects to many people so it's very hard to compare it to previous editions or other games.

4e is the latest edition of D&D. Simple and straightforward. Is it the game you were playing when you played 3.x or any other edition? No. Does it matter in the grand scheme of things? Not really.

Later

 

[Alcamtar]

What's a "fantasy heartbreaker"?

A game that is essentially a bland and uninspiring D&D clone with one or two really amazing and cool innovations. The game will obviously never even register on most folks' radar, both because it is bland and because it is too similar to D&D to hope to compete.

It's a "heartbreaker" because those worthy innovations are doomed to languish in obscurity instead of enriching the community, or of getting folded back into the game they originated from. (The OGL enabled this for the first and perhaps only time in history, only WOTC failed to make good use of it.)

It's also a heartbreaker because someone poured their heart and soul into it.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

A game that is essentially a bland and uninspiring D&D clone with one or two really amazing and cool innovations. The game will obviously never even register on most folks' radar, both because it is bland and because it is too similar to D&D to hope to compete.

It's a "heartbreaker" because those worthy innovations are doomed to languish in obscurity instead of enriching the community, or of getting folded back into the game they originated from. (The OGL enabled this for the first and perhaps only time in history, only WOTC failed to make good use of it.)

It's also a heartbreaker because someone poured their heart and soul into it.

Whilst there are other definitions, this is certainly the one I was referring to.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Brand loyalty for this name is freakin' insane.

It's not insane. The brand name guarantees player availability and years of support.

 

[Agamon]

You know what Diaglo says...and in a silly arguement like this, he's right.

 

[Alcamtar]

A partial List: BECMI D&D

* No Barbarian, Ranger, Bard Classes
* Druid, Paladin heavily modified (PrC like for clerics and fighters)
* Dwarf, Elf, Halfling their own specific classes.
* Every class (save wizard) one HD lower (thief d4, cleric d6, fighter d8)
* Weapon Grand Mastery Rules
* Three Alignments (Law, Neutral, Chaos)
* No Great Wheel Cosmology
* Heal (Cureall) a wizard spell
* "1st level wizard spell" a 7th level cleric spell
* level and spell progression cap at 36, not 20
* No Multi- or Dual- Classing
* No Gnomes, Half-orcs, or Half-elves
* Clerics get their first level of spellcasting at level 2
* Standardized Ability score modifiers for all scores
* AC begins at 9, not 10.

Thats a lot of Sacred Cows. Is it still D&D?

<>
Well done! A flawless proof that 4e isn't actually D&D, lacking as it does the aforementioned bovines.

But that is to be expected. It is after all (and through no fault of its own) merely the spawn of AD&D which was only a cousin of the One True Game, not a direct descendant as was BECMI.

Furthermore, we must acknowledge and encourage the attempt to emulate its elders: clearly it really wants to be D&D when it grows up. Dropping barbarians and half orcs and multiclassing are clear signs of repentance and maturity.

Finally, as everyone knows, the One True Game has no rules, only guidelines, and we would violating the true spirit of The EGG to exclude 4e because of mere mechanics.

In light of these facts, I move that we grant 4e the status of "honorary D&D".
</>

 

[Ruin Explorer]

It's not insane. The brand name guarantees player availability and years of support.

You are confusing "guarantees" with "makes more likely".