(+) Hopes for The Monk

[Bill Zebub]

My hope is that instead of buffing monks using the same things other classes have they find a unique way of doing it that feels different from other classes.

What I still would love love love to see is for monks to be granted extra reactions, and then given some flavorful abilities (offensive, defensive, movement, utility) on which to spend those reactions, both in the base class and the subclasses.

 

[Clint_L]

What about giving monks a spell interrupt? Kind of like mage slayer, where they get a reaction attack if adjacent to an enemy attempting to cast a spell. Except instead of doing damage, the spellcaster has to make a constitution save or the spell is countered. The interrupt is free, but for every ki the monk spends, subtract their proficiency bonus from the enemy's saving throw.

The monk's big thing is maneuverability - they should be charging to the back and making life hell for enemy casters.

 

[James Gasik]

The problem with charging to the back line is when the enemy melee can fall back and surround the Monk, who isn't built to take that kind of pressure for long.

I'm not sure the interruption ability would be super useful or not, they already have Stunning Strike, while a melee counterspell isn't terrible, it only comes up if there is an enemy spellcaster, so there are going to be fights where it's literally a ribbon.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The problem with charging to the back line is when the enemy melee can fall back and surround the Monk, who isn't built to take that kind of pressure for long.

I'm not sure the interruption ability would be super useful or not, they already have Stunning Strike, while a melee counterspell isn't terrible, it only comes up if there is an enemy spellcaster, so there are going to be fights where it's literally a ribbon.

There should be more situational uses of ki.

And the patient defense action should provide passive DR that stacks with deflect missiles (which should work for any weapon attack).

And step of the wind shouldn’t be the only way to more easily disengage and get out of that surrounded situation.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I wonder if you could just replace stunning strike with upgrades to the non-ki abilities.

Like, Unarmored movement: When you are targeted by an attack of opportunity, you can use an extra 5ft of movement to impose disadvantage on the attack. (No action required)

Martial Arts: when you make an attack with an unarmed strike, you can choose to deal damage and try to grapple, slow, or shove the target. If you spend 1 ki, you can instead deal damage and try to daze, disarm, or silence, the target.

 

[shadowoflameth]

So, first thing, it’s a plus thread. Discussion is good, crapping on people’s ideals, petty bickering, and arguing that the monk shouldn’t exist or shouldn’t be updated or that OneDnD is bad and we should feel bad, are all not it.

That said, I have some hopes for the monk, and I’m curious what everyone else’s are.

• New name - I doubt this will happen, but mystic or adept are both good alternatives to monk
• Renamed Ki to focus, spirit, energy, anything but ki or exertion
• A clean way to regain extra ki* to effectively give more ki without changing the numbers on the class table or the max you can have going into a scene, like regain wisdom mod ki as an action PB/LR
• More ki features, less hard focus on being Unarmored and unarmed.
  • Unarmored Defense like the Barbarian, no features only working if Unarmored, flurry of blows and the martial arts attack deal set damage dice but don’t have to be unarmed attacks. Flavor can be pommel strikes or even just quick jabs with the weapon, etc.
• Add a mystical power attack that just adds force damage to a successful attack.
• Stunning strike dazed target, and the target becomes stunned if you use it on them again while they are dazed. Or replace it entirely with a set of upgrades to each of the level 2 ki abilities.
• High level step of the wind allows you to exceed your movement for the round with a jump, and/or gives a short burst fly speed.
• Add a feat of strength ability
• Add fighting styles, with multiple that do not require a weapon
• Maybe have a choice from 3 Forms or whatever at level 1, like the cleric’s Holy Orders. Here you choose whether to be totally unarmed and Unarmored, or to have a specially bonded weapon, or to have more skills?

And the PHB subclasses:

• Open Hand is mostly perfect as is
• Shadow gains 1/LR free use of each leveled spell it gains, teleport at level 3 that scales with levels and gain the advantage rider at level 6
• Elements takes the elemental attunement features of the Wu Jen mystic from UA, gains pb/lr free casting of certain elemental spells, and disciplines drop down by 1 ki each in cost.

The names of things are not the problem. Monk is a good thematic name and distinct from the cleric. I'm not clear on the objection to Ki or Chi which are referenced often in literature and in Martial Arts which the Monk centers around.

For me, Give the Monk a fighting style at 1st. Unarmed would fix the weakness most see in damage output. Drop the Ki point requirement for things that don't warrant it, Step of the Wind and Careful Defense don't need it. Stunning Strike is strong but it often doesn't work. Most Monks don't have a high Save DC on it because of MAD.

WotC should stop it with the poorly made and weak sub classes. Stunning Strike is not a valid justification for offering useless options.

All three PHB sub-classes need help and so do all of the others in later books. The Open Hand is arguably the strongest but there is nothing in it, or any other 5e Monk that can't be done better with a fighter especially if feats are in except Stunning strike.

At 3rd level and beyond, players discover that there simply are no strong sub-class choices and that most options give the character things that are sub-par compared to what the Monk can already do. 4 Elements is the worst in the PHB (maybe in the game) in this regard and it needs a lot more help than just lowering the Ki cost.

 

[Corinnguard]

So, first thing, it’s a plus thread. Discussion is good, crapping on people’s ideals, petty bickering, and arguing that the monk shouldn’t exist or shouldn’t be updated or that OneDnD is bad and we should feel bad, are all not it.

That said, I have some hopes for the monk, and I’m curious what everyone else’s are.

• New name - I doubt this will happen, but mystic or adept are both good alternatives to monk
• Renamed Ki to focus, spirit, energy, anything but ki or exertion
• A clean way to regain extra ki* to effectively give more ki without changing the numbers on the class table or the max you can have going into a scene, like regain wisdom mod ki as an action PB/LR
• More ki features, less hard focus on being Unarmored and unarmed.
  • Unarmored Defense like the Barbarian, no features only working if Unarmored, flurry of blows and the martial arts attack deal set damage dice but don’t have to be unarmed attacks. Flavor can be pommel strikes or even just quick jabs with the weapon, etc.
• Add a mystical power attack that just adds force damage to a successful attack.
• Stunning strike dazed target, and the target becomes stunned if you use it on them again while they are dazed. Or replace it entirely with a set of upgrades to each of the level 2 ki abilities.
• High level step of the wind allows you to exceed your movement for the round with a jump, and/or gives a short burst fly speed.
• Add a feat of strength ability
• Add fighting styles, with multiple that do not require a weapon
• Maybe have a choice from 3 Forms or whatever at level 1, like the cleric’s Holy Orders. Here you choose whether to be totally unarmed and Unarmored, or to have a specially bonded weapon, or to have more skills?

And the PHB subclasses:

• Open Hand is mostly perfect as is
• Shadow gains 1/LR free use of each leveled spell it gains, teleport at level 3 that scales with levels and gain the advantage rider at level 6
• Elements takes the elemental attunement features of the Wu Jen mystic from UA, gains pb/lr free casting of certain elemental spells, and disciplines drop down by 1 ki each in cost.

Adept | Level Up This is what the Adept class from Level Up has to offer. Does it come close to what you want to see for the Monk in One D&D? curious

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Adept | Level Up This is what the Adept class from Level Up has to offer. Does it come close to what you want to see for the Monk in One D&D? curious

I dislike its name, the exertion mechanic, the fact it leans harder toward “martial arts expert” and away from “mystic warrior”, etc. tbh I mostly just am not into the general style and vibe of A5e, is probably the real issue.

That all said, if you took that and made it more mystical, and kept the brawlers and other non-mystic types in the fighter and Barbarian (there really should be a bareknuckle brawler Barbarian, anyway), maybe even put the kensei type into the rogue, and just go all in on “this is a warrior from an esoteric/mystical school” and lean into the actual point of ki in martial arts, which is that all movement and action is rooted in your breath, regardless of whether you’re a fighter, athlete, singer, or whatever else, it’s not a bad start.

Which is why my mystic has focus dice (combined martial arts die and ki points), with the flavor of focus being centered on your breath, and you have techniques ranging from manuevers to stances to meditations, and then “regimens” which are class features you choose during a long rest, activating a small number from a larger pool that you know.

Also, for me, the archetype begs to be able to go to a master of a school and learn a new technique, like a wizard learning a new spell, so techniques and regimens both work that way, with a limit to how many you have prepared via conditioning and focusing on certain aspects of training.

 

[cwallach]

The monk gets a bonus action attack without needing a feat, and has two reactions, Deflect Missile and Slow Fall. I'd like to see more reactions added to the base monk class, such the Defensive Duelist feat. Adding to the action economy would make the monk play differently than other martials.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The monk gets a bonus action attack without needing a feat, and has two reactions, Deflect Missile and Slow Fall. I'd like to see more reactions added to the base monk class, such the Defensive Duelist feat. Adding to the action economy would make the monk play differently than other martials.

PB/LR extra reactions would be cool, once per round, would be cool. Especially if they also make deflect missiles into deflect attacks.

 

[Mistwell]

I am playing a monk for the first time (Mercy Monk). My thoughts so far: 1) it's fun to make three attacks plus essentially a forth most rounds, 2) they're fine outside of combat most of the time though the demands on ability scores remain a bit much, 3) they still could use more Ki or a better mechanic than a short rest to regain Ki or a different pool to power their subclass abilities than Ki.

 

[Clint_L]

I agree! Mercy monks (I'm also playing one) are a huge step forward in monk design just because they have a couple of options that actually compete with stunning strike, so as a player you get to make some interesting choices, especially once you hit level 6.

I think we can probably all agree on a few things:

1. Playing a monk from levels 1-4 is really tedious compared to most other classes. You have a limited power pool and not many choices of what to do with the power that you do have.

2. Stunning strike is good but turns monk into a one-trick pony.

3. Ki is way too limited a resource - monks need it just to be competitive with what other classes can do baseline.

4. Too fragile for a melee specialist.

5. Too MAD.

 

[WanderingMystic]

I agree! Mercy monks (I'm also playing one) are a huge step forward in monk design just because they have a couple of options that actually compete with stunning strike, so as a player you get to make some interesting choices, especially once you hit level 6.

I think we can probably all agree on a few things:

1. Playing a monk from levels 1-4 is really tedious compared to most other classes. You have a limited power pool and not many choices of what to do with the power that you do have.

2. Stunning strike is good but turns monk into a one-trick pony.

3. Ki is way too limited a resource - monks need it just to be competitive with what other classes can do baseline.

4. Too fragile for a melee specialist.

5. Too MAD.

1: Agree

2: I personal hate stunning strike because it is a boring option that is far to good to not do.

3: If ki reset when you rolled initiative then once you get to level 5 or 6 it is ok. Personally I would love to see a regeneration as a bonus action equal to your prof bonus.

4: If you are able to keep your stats high then it is not as bad but a d10 would be amazing.

5: Agree

6: They need better abilities at higher levels than things like don't age and speaks all languages

7: I would love to see a strength variety be playable. Unless they finally decide to give barbarians a way to do unarmed attacks that are worth while It is very difficult to build a strength brawler toye character.

 

[Clint_L]

I agree - a strength build for monk would be cool, the same way that a dex build for fighter is possible. Strength would have to also contribute to AC, or replace wisdom or something, or else the sub-class would be way too MAD.

 

[WanderingMystic]

I agree - a strength build for monk would be cool, the same way that a dex build for fighter is possible. Strength would have to also contribute to AC, or replace wisdom or something, or else the sub-class would be way too MAD.

Oh yeah the MAD is already maddening. They could do it as a barbarian subclass and that would work but they have been so protective of keeping all unarmed except for the bare basics in the monks domain. Give me a drunken dwarf brawler or a grappler as an option. It is why I like Stirling Vermin's Pugilist class so much because it highlights fisticuffs instead of just a sex based martial arts style

 

[Kobold Avenger]

I agree - a strength build for monk would be cool, the same way that a dex build for fighter is possible. Strength would have to also contribute to AC, or replace wisdom or something, or else the sub-class would be way too MAD.

My thoughts are it could replace Wis, as the AC bonus and for save DCs for things like Stunning Fist. In 5e a character with both a high Dex and high Str isn't the most optimal character in most cases, which I find strange.

 

[Clint_L]

Oh yeah the MAD is already maddening. They could do it as a barbarian subclass and that would work but they have been so protective of keeping all unarmed except for the bare basics in the monks domain. Give me a drunken dwarf brawler or a grappler as an option. It is why I like Stirling Vermin's Pugilist class so much because it highlights fisticuffs instead of just a sex based martial arts style

I don't like it as a barbarian sub-class. Barbarians are already too close to being competitive with monks in unarmed combat, which really should be the monk's territory. Rage bonus damage plus resistance to damage and high HP make barbarians very tough.

Let's say the monk is AC 15, the barbarian AC 14. At levels 1-4, the unarmed, raging barbarian does a little more than 3 DPR. The unarmed monk does about the same damage, due to the barbarian's resistance, so the barbarian should win that fight based on a larger HP pool, though by level 4 the extra attacks from flurry of blows make it close and probably tip the fight to the monk - I can't be arsed to fully math it out, but it is a narrow difference. At level 5 and above it gets more interesting - instead of two attacks to the barbarians one, it becomes three to two, but then there is the possibility of stunning strike which can be a game changer if it lands (friendly save for a barbarian, though), or else more ki for flurry of blows.

And that's just against a baseline barbarian right now. Anyhow, I don't feel like this should be a close fight. If the monk can't even blow every other class away in unarmed combat, then it really makes you wonder what the point of them is.

 

[WanderingMystic]

I don't like it as a barbarian sub-class. Barbarians are already too close to being competitive with monks in unarmed combat, which really should be the monk's territory. Rage bonus damage plus resistance to damage and high HP make barbarians very tough.

Let's say the monk is AC 15, the barbarian AC 14. At levels 1-4, the unarmed, raging barbarian does a little more than 3 DPR. The unarmed monk does about the same damage, due to the barbarian's resistance, so the barbarian should win that fight based on a larger HP pool, though by level 4 the extra attacks from flurry of blows make it close and probably tip the fight to the monk - I can't be arsed to fully math it out, but it is a narrow difference. At level 5 and above it gets more interesting - instead of two attacks to the barbarians one, it becomes three to two, but then there is the possibility of stunning strike which can be a game changer if it lands (friendly save for a barbarian, though), or else more ki for flurry of blows.

And that's just against a baseline barbarian right now. Anyhow, I don't feel like this should be a close fight. If the monk can't even blow every other class away in unarmed combat, then it really makes you wonder what the point of them is.

So in my head the monk is an unarmed master but it is your martial class that can do all of the quasi magical stuff as well as you multi attack master. I want the barbarian to be able to punch someone if they want to and it be feasible. In the other hand I want the monk to be making 4+ attacks with either their unarmed attacks or with their weapon. I want the monk to run on walls, to be able to make a melee attack at range because they send out a shockwave.

All that being said I still want a strength based monk option even if I also want a brawling barbarian. The difference is that the barbarian can take more hits and while he hits hard he only has at most two attacks where the monk just never stops hitting you

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I agree! Mercy monks (I'm also playing one) are a huge step forward in monk design just because they have a couple of options that actually compete with stunning strike, so as a player you get to make some interesting choices, especially once you hit level 6.

I think we can probably all agree on a few things:

1. Playing a monk from levels 1-4 is really tedious compared to most other classes. You have a limited power pool and not many choices of what to do with the power that you do have.

I kinda agree. Mostly I think deflect [attacks] should be a level 2 feature, and slow fall should have a “if you take no damage you do not fall prone, and you can spend 1 ki to activate the patient defense or step of the wind ability as part of the same reaction” clause. Bam. You’ve got “dope monk stuff” right away with some being at will and some costing ki, and it’s all cool as hell.

2. Stunning strike is good but turns monk into a one-trick pony.

Yeah imo it’s overrated, but it definitely makes people feel like they have to save ki for it, which is bad.

3. Ki is way too limited a resource - monks need it just to be competitive with what other classes can do baseline.

Yep level 2 needs to be at least 4 points, tbh, and they need a X/LR “regain so many points as an action” or a couple “when this happens and you have less than half your ki total, you regain 1 ki” or “when you spend ki and XYZ you don’t spend the ki”, type stuff.

4. Too fragile for a melee specialist.

Yeah not super my XP, but enough folks do experience this that I figure there’s soemthing to it.

5. Too MAD.

On this, I actually think it’s fine. They’re no more MAD than Rangers or Paladins or gish Wizards and Bards. But they don’t use Wisdom enough, while simultaneously having no choice but to invest a bit into it.

Higher hit die and generalizing deflect missiles (all weapon attacks, and then upgrade at level 6 to include spell attacks) would lower necessary Con, and making level 2 spirit points wisdom mod plus monk level would make wisdom matter in a way that is less…annoying.

Meanwhile…let the poor bastards wear light and medium armor. Seriously it’s fine. You can get rid of the Unarmored requirements and the weapon limits and the class still runs just fine. I’ve been running a monk with a custom “spiked chain” that is just a versatile (d6) whip, and like, upgrading the damage to d10 would not break anything lol

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I don't like it as a barbarian sub-class. Barbarians are already too close to being competitive with monks in unarmed combat, which really should be the monk's territory. Rage bonus damage plus resistance to damage and high HP make barbarians very tough.

Let's say the monk is AC 15, the barbarian AC 14. At levels 1-4, the unarmed, raging barbarian does a little more than 3 DPR. The unarmed monk does about the same damage, due to the barbarian's resistance, so the barbarian should win that fight based on a larger HP pool, though by level 4 the extra attacks from flurry of blows make it close and probably tip the fight to the monk - I can't be arsed to fully math it out, but it is a narrow difference. At level 5 and above it gets more interesting - instead of two attacks to the barbarians one, it becomes three to two, but then there is the possibility of stunning strike which can be a game changer if it lands (friendly save for a barbarian, though), or else more ki for flurry of blows.

And that's just against a baseline barbarian right now. Anyhow, I don't feel like this should be a close fight. If the monk can't even blow every other class away in unarmed combat, then it really makes you wonder what the point of them is.

I disagree extremely hard.

The monk should not be so focused on unarmed combat. The brawler should be a fighter or Barbarian, heck there’s even thematic space for a rogue, but none of those are the expert in a mystical martial tradition that seeks to take the study of a particular martial form/system into a transcendent Art.