Hordes of the Abyss: Q&A

[BryonD]

An inexperienced DM running monsters with CRs in the low 20s? Yeah, it sure would suck to get up over 15-18th level and still consider the DM inexperienced. Really, when does this happen?

Not all games start at 1st level. Quite a large number do not.
Inexperienced DMs running higher levels games is quite common.

Regardless of the quantity of this, I will stick to my claim that creatures that are knowingly off from their CR is a bad thing for ALL DMs.

 

[BryonD]

Because fights with dragons or demon lords shouldn't be minor encountes. They should be memorable. They should also be major encounters that the PCs know they're going into; and therefore these monsters reflect the fact that the PCs probably took the time to prepare specific spells or tactics to use against them.

So they should then get under-rewarded in XP?

If I use a CR10 monster as the memorable end encounter for a party of L10 characters, should I olny give them XP for a CR9 monster based on the reasoning you just presented?

 

[Rystil Arden]

Not all games start at 1st level. Quite a large number do not.
Inexperienced DMs running higher levels games is quite common.

Regardless of the quantity of this, I will stick to my claim that creatures that are knowingly off from their CR is a bad thing for ALL DMs.

Indeed. In fact, I would say that there are actually a higher percentage of inexperienced GMs compared to experienced who decide to jump into games that start at high levels because they don't know what they're getting into and think that GMing at those levels will be easier than it is (at least from what I've seen).

 

[James Jacobs]

If Jubliex can be CR19, then why are you stating that he may not be CR18? If he can be CR18, then why not CR17? Where does it stop?

If you can say that being up to casting Wish is powerful enough, then I can say that being up to casting Limited Wish can be as well. I don't believe that either of those statements really hold water within the expected mythology. But, compared to the expected mythology, the first statement is so flawed that the difference to the second statement is negligible.

You made the statement that they should be no less powerful than presented. I'd really like to know WHY. Can you present a justification for that statement which does not beg the question of why they are permitted to be sub-epic?

We had to pick SOMETHING as the baseline. CR 20 seemed the most logical, for obvious reasons. CR 20 is the upper limit of non-demon lord CRs in the Monster Manual, so it seemed obvious that would make the best transition point. Now, it's not an exact transition. As you note, Juiblex is CR 19, and Yeenoghu's at CR 20. The remaining 12 demon lords are CR 21–23.

As the Monster Manual is set up, CR 20 is more or less the cap (with a few exceptions); reducing demon lords much below this cap has an increasing host of implications. Sub CR 20 demon lords are perfectly acceptable if you're running a campaign where the PCs aren't going above 10th, or 15th, or whatever level. In such a campaign, you'll have to nerf or eliminate the tougher demons (like balors), though. And you should also nerf/eliminate similar outsiders from other realms (pit fiends, solars, etc.). And spells like greater planar ally will suddenly be able to catch demon lords, which doesn't make much sense to me. And so on.

We set CR 20 as the baseline because that's the implied baseline in the core rules.

 

[BryonD]

OK,

I'll replace your statement:

That said, they shouldn't be any LESS deadly than the stats in FC I; those stats are a "baseline" for the demon lords.

with:

Sub CR 20 demon lords are perfectly acceptable if you're running a campaign where the PCs aren't going above 10th, or 15th, or whatever level.

The first statement jumped off the screen at me as not consistent with the current arguement.
Your second statement is consistent with that argument.

 

[James Jacobs]

So they should then get under-rewarded in XP?

If I use a CR10 monster as the memorable end encounter for a party of L10 characters, should I olny give them XP for a CR9 monster based on the reasoning you just presented?

Of course not. Award them XP for a CR 10 monster if they defeat a CR 10 monster. But if that fight ended up being too tough or too simple, change the award. For example, a fight with a dread wraith is an easy fight for a group of paladins and clerics armed with ghost touch weapons, but it's a really tough fight for a band of rogues and bards. The CR of the monster stays the same, but you should probably adjust the amount of XP given.

Over the long run, CR-to-XP awards should more or less average out for the best, so as a general rule it's simplest to just award straight-up XP awards.

Just remember that the CR system is, at its core, not an exact science.

 

[BryonD]

Of course not. Award them XP for a CR 10 monster if they defeat a CR 10 monster. But if that fight ended up being too tough or too simple, change the award.

Right, but that goes without saying. It is only when creatures are intentionally given a bad CR that problems crop up.

For example, a fight with a dread wraith is an easy fight for a group of paladins and clerics armed with ghost touch weapons, but it's a really tough fight for a band of rogues and bards. The CR of the monster stays the same, but you should probably adjust the amount of XP given.

Certainly. If the party has an advantage you adjust. Knowing that you are going to fight Orcus and getting prepared would be such an advantage. Thus, if you fight a CR23 demon lord and prepare ahead you should get less XP, just as you would for any other monster.

BUT!!!! In the case of demon lords, if your statement is accurate, this preparation is already built into the CR. So if a party is not prepared they will get underrewarded. On the other hand, if the party is prepared and the DM does the correct thing in cutting the reward, then the party will be double charged for their readiness.

The idea of building it in to the CR only works if you assume that the party will always be ready AND you assume that the DM doesn't know how to adjust experience. A bad combination of assumptions.

Over the long run, CR-to-XP awards should more or less average out for the best, so as a general rule it's simplest to just award straight-up XP awards.

So ignore everything else, under-reward them for demon lords and don't worry about it?

Just remember that the CR system is, at its core, not an exact science.

Right. Which makes intentionally wrong CRs even worse. This system has enough quirks without new ones being built in.

 

[Shade]

As someone firmly in the "demon lords should be way tougher" camp, I'll admit that I'm a bit less concerned now that I've got the book. James means it when he says that they are tough for their CR.

Let's look at what the toughest of the demon lords, Demogorgon, loses with his 7 drop in CR:

• 12 HD
• 66 hp
• -4 AC
• 8 points of spell resistance
• -5 Int, -7 Wis, -2 Cha
• Gaze DCs -7
• Rot DC -2
• SLAs: At will--deeper darkness, detect thoughts, fear, read magic, suggestion, tongues, unholy aura, wall of ice, water breathing; 1/day--symbols (all except death), shapechange
• BoVD SLAs (which he may have lost anyway in retcon if not reprinted within)
• Item master

He actually gains:

• All natural attacks upgraded at least one die
• True seeing (previously see invisibility)
• Swim speed
• +10 Str, +7 Con
• Better (IMHO) DR: 20/cold iron and good vs. 20/epic
• Energy drain DC +2
• Amphibious SQ
• SLAs: at will--astral projection, project image; 3/day--feeblemind, symbol of death (upgraded from 1/day); 1/day--dominate person

Other than a few of the SLAs, he's almost scarier now. Now, advance him back to CR 30, and he's far more powerful than before.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Right. Which makes intentionally wrong CRs even worse. This system has enough quirks without new ones being built in.

I think there's a gray area--a rather large one, in some cases--between something being a "high CR X" and something that should be CR X+1. There's a lot of wiggle room in the CR system, and the fact that something of CR X is tougher than something else of CR X doesn't always mean that one of them is of the wrong CR.

 

[Shade]

James, while you're here:

Were the nashrou and deathdrinker (both listed on the CR list) cut for space, or are they from another not-yet-released supplement?