Hordes of the Abyss.

[jasamcarl]

No. But what I'm saying is this (perhaps I'm not articulating this point well enough): even though I don't need stats, if you're going to do stats, do them right. Have them make sense in the context of the game.

As a reminder, even H4 (Throne of Bloodstone) assumed the characters would be 100th level before duking it out with Orcus. Now, 100th level characters from that time certainly wouldn't convert to 3.x 100th level characters - but they wouldn't be level 20 either, for sure.

Why do you care if you are not going to use them? Are you sure that most players aren't content with hand waiving these debatable fluff contradictions and instead want mechanically usable stats?

 

[Psion]

As a reminder, even H4 (Throne of Bloodstone) assumed the characters would be 100th level before duking it out with Orcus. Now, 100th level characters from that time certainly wouldn't convert to 3.x 100th level characters - but they wouldn't be level 20 either, for sure.

I certainly wouldn't use Bloodstone as the basis for any assumptions to follow.

I think my central point stands. Sure, you don't want to have to do the work. But as you play things, you are never going to have to do the work, because for you to be comfortable, you'll place those statistics well above what the PCs could hope to muster. I think it makes perfect sense to optimize the statistics for those who are going to use it.

 

[Shemeska]

In my games, archfiends are not "end bosses." They are not entitites you just walk up to and roll initiative. If you assault an archfiend (or paragon celestial), you die, just as if you had assaulted a deity (and no, I didn't even buy D&DG... because deities should not have stats). The only way you can even remotely harm an archfiend is through cunning and/or really, really, really powerful magic. Even then, you can only temporarily incovenience the said archfiend.

Amen.

I don't like to see archfiends intentionally watered down, because by being the 'official' stats, it gives ammo for the folks who only want to see archfiends as big monsters to kill in their extraplanar dungeons. Are they the physical manifestations of chaos and evil, the embodiments of the frothing, rendered down stuff of billions of chaotic evil souls that have been devoured by the Abyss itself, metaphysical concepts taken flesh? No, they're only CR X monsters, and obviously you can kill them with a + Y weapon.

It's a worry.

But I'm not interested in the stats in the book anyways. To heck with the bloody crunch, I'm interested in the flavor text and the lore that's provided. I'm eager to see that, and I'll hold off on forming an opinion on the book till I've actually read the book myself.

My archfiends will remain god slaughtering beings without stats, thank you very much.

 

[Psion]

I don't like to see archfiends intentionally watered down, because by being the 'official' stats, it gives ammo for the folks who only want to see archfiends as big monsters to kill in their extraplanar dungeons.

The point has already been made that the weaker stats repesent them outside of their planar layers.

Keep your eye on the ball, folks.

 

[Ripzerai]

It's pretty standard for early Planescape books. The later books, such as Planes of Chaos, certainly did change the stance a bit. On the other hand, there is a handful of modules which don't support the changed stance.

Ugh. I don't want to turn yet another thread into a discussion about Planescape, but...

Planes of Chaos was a very early Planescape supplement, actually. It came out in the same year as the boxed set.

It was the first and last PS supplement to provide stats for archfiends.

 

[Shemeska]

Pretty pretty yugoloth DEMANDS ANSWERS!!!!

*flutters fiendish eyelashes*

What I want to know is:

1) Is there anything in the flavor text that gives justifications to the Abyssal Lords being able to manhandle deities, given the rather unfortunate false dichotomy between archfiends and true deities that 3e has provided us with? Ie is there material on the control Abyssal Lords have over their own layers of the Abyss?

2) Is there anything mentioned regarding the origins of the Tanar'ri, specifically tied to the Heart of Darkness mythos and the General of Gehenna.

3) Spill the beans on the two non-Tanar'ri races of CE fiends. Do they predate the arrival of the Tanar'ri in the Abyss, post date it? I'm keen to see where they went with this.

4) Pale Night: what's the dark on her relationship with the Tanar'ri, or lack thereof. Is she actually a Tanar'ri, or something... else?

5) What is mentioned regarding Charon as a yugoloth lord, and what context is he mentioned in.

6) What sort of material is there on the Tanar'ri within the context of fighting the Blood War?

 

[Shemeska]

The point has already been made that the weaker stats repesent them outside of their planar layers.

Keep your eye on the ball, folks.

Such seemingly being the intent, I'm aware of that, and I -really- appreciate that. But if it's not referenced in the book itself, for whatever reason, I don't look forward to having to cover that ground with one dimensional munchkins on the WotC boards.

If such a statement was there originally but removed during editing, it would be unfortunate.

 

[Umbran]

Moderator:
Also, folks, please keep your eye on The Rules. Specifically, don't let the heat of the argument lead you to being insulting or snarky. It isn't constructive. It doesn't convince the other guy, or make your point look attractive to third parties.

 

[Sammael]

Ugh. I don't want to turn yet another thread into a discussion about Planescape, but...

Planes of Chaos was a very early Planescape supplement, actually. It came out in the same year as the boxed set.

It was the first and last PS supplement to provide stats for archfiends.

My memory is playing tricks on me, then. Perhaps I didn't buy it until later down the line. At any rate, if one product out of the entire product line provides archfiend stats, it is debatable as to how seriously we should take that product in that regard.

 

[Psion]

My memory is playing tricks on me, then. Perhaps I didn't buy it until later down the line. At any rate, if one product out of the entire product line provides archfiend stats, it is debatable as to how seriously we should take that product in that regard.

But Bloodstone's fair game?

At any rate, it sounds like we are canon-wrangling now. Sort of a wasteful excercise, AFAIAC.