Hordes of the Abyss.

[M.L. Martin]

Sorry to be a broken record, but people keep on missng htis point. To repeat what was said upthread again:

The base stats represent the fiend off his plane. The "real" stats of the fiend can be significantly higher.

And that's not even counting how much of the fiend's power has to go into maintaining control over the layer in the first place. My explanation for this for those who need one, based on bits and pieces of D&D lore I've picked up and mixed in with fiction and mythology, is that archfiends probably could manifest themselves with power levels at least 5 to 10 times their 'standard' stats . . . if they wanted to risk withdrawing all their power from other sources, thus leaving themselves and their planar realms open to assaults from other angles.

Of course, for me, this is all a moot point. I don't think much of the 'core' cosmology and view it as a bunch of cool stuff to rearrange mixed in with some stuff i'm quick to toss out, and I refuse to bow to the iron grip of Planescape canon. Blame the latter on folks who kept insisting that Dustmen in Ravenloft should be able to waltz through half the setting.

Matthew L. Martin, Planar Heretic

 

[Shemeska]

Blame the latter on folks who kept insisting that Dustmen in Ravenloft should be able to waltz through half the setting.

Maybe it's just me, but if I had a PC Dustie in Ravenloft, I'd intentionally make it worse off on them depending on where they were. I'd play with their head and toy with their beliefs regarding True Death... *evil cackle*

 

[Psion]

All the scary things in Ravenloft aren't undead...

 

[Nightfall]

Well no but the cool scary ones are. I mean Soth, Strahd and Azalin, they were/are pretty damn cool!

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I don't like to see archfiends intentionally watered down, because by being the 'official' stats, it gives ammo for the folks who only want to see archfiends as big monsters to kill in their extraplanar dungeons.

Why does it bother you how other people play their games?

 

[Nightfall]

Cause maybe they'll come gunning for Shemmy next!

 

[Pants]

Off the top of my head, does anyone know what the name of the demon that balor's were supposed to fear? The one that keept people in the Blood War when they deserted? Was it the wolf headed thing with the snake head? If so, he also got nerfed to a CR 19.

The only reason Balor's 'feared' Molydei demons was because, well, back in 2e they were pretty much immune to a Balor's primary mode of attack. Only Cold-Wrought Iron and spells affected them. They actually had LESS HD than Balors back then too.

They're not physically more powerful than Balor's, (and in fact, they report directly to Balors) but... sometimes to promote the BW effort, they'd push Balor's around.

When I did my revision, I had them pegged at CR 19 too.

Speaking of the Klurichir, it needs errata.

Check out my Revised Klurichir if you want a truly epic version. It has a different name, but it's the same fun, vorpal chomping demon.

In my games, archfiends are not "end bosses." They are not entitites you just walk up to and roll initiative. If you assault an archfiend (or paragon celestial), you die, just as if you had assaulted a deity (and no, I didn't even buy D&DG... because deities should not have stats). The only way you can even remotely harm an archfiend is through cunning and/or really, really, really powerful magic. Even then, you can only temporarily incovenience the said archfiend.

Does it say anywhere in the book that you can just walk up to an Archfiend and roll initiative? Is there a 'wandering Demogorgon' table?

I plan on ending a campaign with a nice epic battle against an Archfiend... someday.

Why does it bother you how other people play their games?

Because he plays D&D.

It's a D&D player's job to be offended when someone plays a game differently. I know I'm personally offended whenever Spelljammer gets mentioned!

 

[Delta]

Why don't you have the time for that? All you have to do is play?

DM interpretation and reinterpretation is an inevitable part of the game. As long has he acts in good faith and keeps the gameplay in rough balance, i don't see how this imposes more work for you.

I am the DM.

 

[Nightfall]

Delta,

If you live near the Morgantown, WV area, why don't you come over to the Mountainlair and let ME Dm.

 

[Aus_Snow]

:\

So, when's Dicefreaks hitting the hardcover?

j/k

well, maybe.