Hordes of the Abyss.

BryonD said:
Is this coming from the same Psion that complained so much about 3.5 DR rules and devil/demon builds not fitting well with the Blood War?

I never said canon should NOT be a consideration. So let's not pin a false dichotomy on me, mkay?

If they had said that the demon lords as presented represented their actual true selves, I'd be complaining bitterly with the other folks grousing about inconsistancy with Planescape canon. But they didn't, so I'm not.
 

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Psion said:
I never said canon should NOT be a consideration. So let's not pin a false dichotomy on me, mkay?
:confused:

Dichotomy, yes. False, no.

You made a huge deal out of not staying true to a plot element then and now you are saying that changing something much more significant than a piece of a particular story line isn't a big deal.

I can agree with you completely that this current event is not a problem. I'd prefer otherwise, but I re-build my own stuff all the time, so what is new here?

But on multiple events, with me personally, you expressed near outrage that they had messed with the blood war. You may not have now said that it should not be a "consideration" but there is still a vast dichotomy between now and then. When the 3.5 DR rules were being discussed you made it abundantly clear that you felt the design ideology was wrong to not have fixated on the singular blood war aspect of canon. Exactly the opposite of what you are claiming now.

You got more than slightly snarky with me about it then. The about face here was notable.

If they had said that the demon lords as presented represented their actual true selves, I'd be complaining bitterly with the other folks grousing about inconsistancy with Planescape canon. But they didn't, so I'm not.
Agreed 100%.
 

Aaron L said:
My big concern is that a great wyrm red dragon shouldnt be in the same class powerwise as Demogorgon and Orcus :)

When BoVD darkness come out, I made a joke to that exact effect.
Something about a tavern girl commenting on the adventuring party getting back sooner than expected. The party replies they thought they were going to take out a Great Wyrm, but were relieved to discover that it was just Grazzt. :eek:


Anyway, this may actually be an improvement from BoVD. I think it is.
BoVD pretty much said that the Archdevils and Demon Lords simply were weaker than some prime material plane dragons. I agree with you that this is way off.

But now, the "true" power of demon lords is a) acknowledged to be somewhere north of the book stats and b) open ended for a DM to choose.

I'd call that progress. Maybe a bit shy of my hopes. But certainly progress.
 
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Okay, now that we've gotten past the whole Archfiend fiasco... can we please move onto other aspects of the book? Not that I don't mind regurgitating discussions that were old hat two years agao, but please... let's move on.

I'm very interested in seeing what kinds of creatures are in the book.
Looks like the Molydeus, Rutterkin, and Chasme are in there, but what about the others?

What kinds of feats, spells, and PrC's are in the book?

How much room is spent on demonic anatomy, physiology, and psychology?

How much room is spent on Abyssal Lairs?
 

Razz said:
That's all I meant by it's hard to make a creature more powerful. Anyone can up their Hit Dice, but would you give a CR 20 or 21 creature the abilities Pazrael has from Demonomicon? Would a CR 21 demon lord have a 300 ft. radius of antimagic, or have a touch attack disintegrate affect at will? Not if they're CR is low, because the designers won't be thinking on such a scale. (though they should).

Ah, I kinda see your logic now: there's no denying a creature created a CR 27 and a creature who started out 17 and was given NPC levels/HD upped till he hit CR 27 are not going to be the same kind of thing. Templates can kinda fill this void, but templates suited to the kind of level you're after aren't common.

I stand by my point, however, that it's easier on the DM to try and up a monster to that kind of power than it is to try and downgrade it. Faced with the chocie of where to stick the stats of such NPCs, I think the route that will be potentially of use to more DMs is the best one.

I haev an advantage on these kind of problems in tha tmy players aren't D&D experts: only one really has a huge history of playing the game, the others have mainly learned through me and the books I've given them to read. This means that whil they were scared when a Demon Princess cropped up in my game, they had no idea if they were CR 12 scared, CR 24 scared or CR 48 scared. If I was dealing with people with lots of experience in Greyhawk, Planescape or what have you, perhaps I'd get more resistance if I decided my homebrew's Orcus was only just post-epic and sub-servient to a deity of death, but my group have no canon to get hung up upon. ;-)
 

I agree, let's move on to other stuff in the book.

This might be the first time something with a D&D book went semi-wrong and I am actually dealing with it rather well. Heh. First for everything eh? But then, I never expected Hordes of the Abyss to disappoint me and it hasn't...yet.

I still hate the new PrC format. Death to the guy that made that happen. Ok, not death, a little harsh, but you need to get laid off! :]

So, yeah, whatever happened to JoeGKushner? Been off the radar for awhile. Or probably reading that book in and out. Get back to us ASAP JOE! :)
 

Shemeska said:
With the exception of 'Planes of Chaos', that's how they were handled over the print run of the Planescape material. That's where the planes got the majority of their detail, where the fiends themselves got the majority of their detail, and the lack of X level stat blocks didn't hamper things then. I prefer the design ideology of that material, it's not just some fluke of my own personal campaign here.

The 'long tradition' of the archfiends being slayable is pretty much 1st edition and the 1st ed nostalgia that reasserted itself with the 3e stats. I don't care for that particular way of approaching the archfiends, I feel that it cheapens them by comparison to the way they were approached during the mid to late 2e material. Others will see this differently, be it purely for childhood nostalgia, or simply wanting to have them as boss monsters in a campaign that won't reach above some level. I accept that, even if I don't share the motivations behind such an approach, but it rings a bit false to label my approach as just something from my own game without precident in DnD at large.

This is not the firs ttime we've all seen this viewpoint from you, of course, so I've long gone past being a little affronted of accused of being a 1st ed nostalgic when my first 1st ed purchase was last year. :-) There's no denying that the power of level of many creatures, not just Gods and Demon Lords, has gone all over the place across D&D, with Giants and Dragons being an obvious example between 1st and 2nd: hell, even between 3.0 and 3.5 we've seen Mummies and Ogres get something of a power kick. Different design teams and different campaign worlds have often given us different views on the same thing. The situation we've got here is not going to be the last time it happens: I expect by 5th Ed I'll be complaining tha tin my day, Beholders weren't all that and any fool could tell you Half-Elves didn't have much power..... ;-)

That Planescape is where the higher planes became more detailed is undeniable. That 2nd edition did change the nature of higher powers from 1st ed is also a fact. But that nature was quite different to what OD&D, 1st Ed and 3rd Ed have presented: a world where a demon prince is powerful, but slayable by mortal hands. You see Planescape's opinion as a more mature evolution that avoids "Juiblex is the boss of dungeon level 12" situations: it seems that WotC see things differently. As ever, we can change things to suit our own campaigns and visions thereof: and you can handwave away these stats if you don't want them. Any player who comes crying that they were expecting nothing above CR 24 when they challeneged Asmodeous to a fight is a problem player, not a problem with the rules. :-)

Shemeska said:
But the stat blocks aren't the reason I'm going to be getting the book, those things are entirely superfluous to the lore on the beings themselves and their layers that I'd like to digest and use directly or as inspiration for my own stuff. I am mildly dissappointed, and disturbed, on some level that the qualifying statements for the relatively weak stats may have been cut by one of the editors. Won't stop me from buying the book though, it's only 23 pages of the whole thing.

This is, of course, the more rational train of thought we should be having. I'm also a bit peeved that they've missed out an eplanation on why the stats are so low compared to previous iterations in 3.X, but I'm far more interested by other aspects of the book.
 


Partial Review. Revision Soon!

So here's how my review is working out. I'm not finished yet and may revise it. I tend to hate the chapter by chapter breakdowns, but that's usually how I do it anyway.

Hordes of the Abyss
ISBN 13-978-0-7869-3919-0
Written by Ed Stark, James Jacobs, Erik Mona
Published by Wizards of the Coast
www.wizards.com/dnd
160 full color pages
$29.95

Demons are a fan favorite for gamers and have a long history in role playing games. This includes unofficial expansions in previous editions such as Mayfair’s Role Aid’s demons line and in 3.5 with Green Ronin’s Armies of the Abyss and Legions of hell which were latter combined into one book. This doesn’t count Mongoose take on it with books on Demonology or OGL variants dealing with the lower planes nor Necromancer Games take on the demon lords in Tome of Horrors series.

Of course that doesn’t touch on the official expansions from TSR to Wizards of the Coast. The old Monster Manual from 1st edition and it’s sequel, along with the numerous supplements for Planescape and even in late 3.0 products like the Book of Vile Darkness to Dragon magazine’s support, including new demonology articles.

The book uses standard two-column format. Broken into five chapters with three appendices, the book makes good use of white space or has the illusion of it with dark red borders. Chapters are laid out towards the outside margin towards the top of the page and page numbers on the bottom outside margin. Page count is standard for Wizards of the Coast products and with the full color and hardback format, isn’t unreasonable, but other publishers like Steve Jackson games with their larger books at full color in hardback, are catching up.

Cover art is handled by Sam Wood. Interior artists include fan favorites like William O’Connon and Wyane Reynolds among others. Interior art is fairly solid but some reuse of art lowers that value. For example, while the full color picture of Graz’zt and Iggwilv by Wayne Renolds on page 101 is fantastic, it’s the same picture that was used for the cover of Dungeon magazine #121. The terrible illustration of Orcus as some balor style demon instead of his bloated self on page 73 comes from the Book of Vile Darkness on page 137.

Cartography is handled by Jason Engle and Kyle Hunter. They provide overviews of different locations, as well as mapped out lairs and encounter spots. The difference in their styles makes it fairly easy to tell for example, that Jason Engle did the Twelve Trees on page 134 while the overview of Thanatos is probably by Kyle Hunter.

The book starts off with Demonic Lore. Want to know how a demon dies? There’s a charming little table that you can roll a d20 on and see anything from the skin of the demon peeling away to rotting away to nothing more than a foul odor. It’s a nice little touch to showcase just how different demons are from standard creatures.

The section on the origins of demons is merely a suggestion that demons arose from the Abyss after the deities, devils, and other powers left that plane and went to others. Pretty boring stuff.

The section on physiology covers a few areas but only in brief detail. For example, demons don’t sleep and those that do breath have powerful lungs and can breath in any Material plane. They don’t need to eat, but can apparently eat limitless amounts of food and some take great enjoyment from it, especially the devouring of sacrifices.

In terms of why demons don’t overrun the Prime campaign, not a lot of thought is given. Perhaps because, when looking under Six Truths About Demons, that the Abyss calls to them. Which doesn’t explain why when fiendish portals open that they fight to keep them open and “take steps to avoid its subsequent closure.” Of course enjoying chaos for it’s own sake might explain a little of that.

This includes the different roles that a demon can play in a campaign. Roles include assassin, brute, corruptor, manipulator, and the overlord. Under each type include suggested demons, combat tactics, how to use these types of function in the campaign, how to fight against this type of demon and general notes.

For example, those fighting against an assassin have to have some protections and knowledge bases in place ahead of time as the assassin isn’t a straightforward encounter. Suggestions include having friends around ala the buddy system, to capturing the assassin. Basic information that well-experienced role players will have gone far beyond. No suggestion on proper spells to select when trying to determine if you’re under such a threat, and no guides on how much such a service in and of itself might cost.

Chapter tow moves onto demons. Revisited and revised or introduced for the first time we have the following; armanite, bar-lgura, broodswarm, bulezau, chasme, dybbuk, ekolid, goristro, guecubu, lilitu, mane, molydeus, nabassu, rutterkin, sibriex and yochlol. Also included are two new subtypes, loumara and obyrith with the tanar’ri still being the most common and reprinted here for ease of use. The loumara, in addition to a wide set of immunities (acid, electricity, and fire), not only have cold resistance, but are incorporeal and can possess creatures and objects. The obyrith don’t have immunity to quite so many things, but do have resistances and fast healing in addition to appearing so freakish that they cause madness.

Monsters are described by name, physical description, game statistics, strategy and tactics, sample encounter, ecology, society, and typical treasure along with a section on lore for each creature from DC 15 to DC 44. These additional tools allow the GM to get the most bang for his buck and quickly insert the monsters into his campaign as appropriate.

My favorite is probably the molydeus. It’s a creature I recall from the old Planescape books that was described as something even a balor would fear. With it’s dancing battle axe of vorpal and it’s numerous innate powers, while it’s not necessarily something a balor would fear, it’s CR 19 insures that all but epic levels characters will respect this demon enforcer’s authority. It was also nice to see manes and rutterkin again as those are perfect minors for lower level adventures.

One of the things I liked least about the book is it’s take on demon lords. The book has deliberately weakened the demon lords to make them possible to fight at the end of the normal progression of the campaign. This means that a standard group of four twentieth level characters should be able to take Dagon or Pazuzu or even older favorites like Orcus.

A strange thing since the other official source of these demon lords statistics, Dragon magazine, is going a different route and will continue to go that route of more powerful demon lords, nor that many people thought that the demon lords as they first appeared in the Book of Vile Darkness were underpowered to begin with.

I can understand the reasoning. There’s a difference between being awed by how powerful a creature is an actually using it, but in the end, for me, it just doesn’t make sense and it’s not a change I like, and it’s not a direction I like. Why have epic rules in the core book, Dungeon Master’s Guide, if they’re not going to be supported? It also goes against the fact that the standard demons and devils were upgraded in the transition to 3.5. So the lesser are upgraded and the princes are downgraded?

Another problem with this approach is that it makes the demon lords very similar in power levels all about. In the “good old days” (god I’m old!) there were noticeable differences between the demon lords and it showed in their game stats. Now there’s very little difference in the power spread.

I know, someone will point out the quarter page on improving the demon lords and go, “See, they are supporting your campaign”, but that’s weak at best. Thankfully, it is true that it’s easier to augment a creature than depower it so I’ll be taking that advice or simply using a third part resource like Tome of Horrors when I need a demon lord to actually you know, be more powerful than a balor.

For those still looking for a weaker version, there is going to be a web update on the Wizards website that provides aspects of the demon lords that should be useful for lower powered campaigns.

Demon lords covered are as follows; Baphomet (CR 20), Dagon (CR 22), Demogorgon (CR 23), Fraz-Urb’luu (CR 21), Graz’zt (CR 22), Jubilex (CR 19), Kostchtchie (CR 21), Malcanthet (CR 21), Obox-ob (CR 22), Orcus (CR 22), Pale Night (CR21), Pazuzu (CR 22), Yeenoghu (CR 20), and Zuggtmoy (CR 21).

Demons start off with name, then an italic description of the creature. Game stats are presented in the new style. Lore for each creature is included which ranges from knowledge checks DC 20 to DC 35. Strategy and tactics covers basic combat formulas and each section ends with servants, enemies, and goals. Each entry is rather short and those seeking further information should check for the Dragon magazine articles featuring each demon.

Afterwards, we move onto chapter four, Trafficking With Demons. It’s a section for players and game masters and points out appropriate PrCs as well as introducing new feats and spells. One of the first character roles mentioned is Demon Hunter. Those more interested in such information should hunt down Goodman Game’s Demon Hunter’s Handbook.

Other roles include demon master, demon summoner or demon worshipper. Because, you know if you didn’t put the word demon in front of it in a book about demons, people would become confused. Those former roles are generally better for an evil or ‘vile’ campaign.

While the book doesn’t include any new PrCs, it does not which ones are appropriate and what source they come from. It covers recent books like the Fiendbinder from Tome of Magic as well as older books like the Book of Vile Darkness for the Thrall. It’s a short section and well, a fairly obvious one. There’s no “Wow!” factor in reading that one role a player might take is a demon hunter, especially when it mentions a demon hunting PrC like the Knight of the Chalice as from it’s very background, it’s an obvious choice. It’s a good cross-promotion bit for those who may not have those books but for those who do, merely a reminder.

Some of the feats include abyssal heritor feats and vile feats. The former are not necessarily evil, but do reflect the chaotic nature of the Abyss and are a result of the mingling of the Abyss and Prime planes mingling. The latter on the other hand, are only available to character who are evil and intelligence and often come with their own costs and are granted by higher powers such as a demon lord.

Many of the heritor feats grow in power if you have more than heritor feat. For example, Claws of the Beast inflicts an extra +1 profane bonus to damage that inclurases by 1 for every two heritor feats you have. The vile feats range from knowing Dark Speech, which effects listeners depending on their alignment and level, to a ‘sacrifice’ feat, Evil Brand, that in and of itself is actually less useful than a normal feat, but is necessary to chain up to higher feats. Evil Brand provides a +2 circumstance bonus to Diplomacy and Intimidate checks against evil creatures, a similar bonus to other +2 to two skill feats with a limit. But because of that you can gain Demonic Conduit that increases the DC’s of your spells against lawful and good targets. Useful but still limited. Good for those casters who want to showcase their ‘evil’ nature.

Spells are arranged by class and in alphabetical order. For sorcerers and wizards, they also include division by school. Domains are also included as follows; corruption, demonic, entropy, fury, ooze, and temptation.

Spells vary in utility and level from enhancing your senses such as the 7th level Fiendish Clarity that grants you darkvision and allows you to see in margical darkness and see invisible and detect good, to the 3rd level blackguard spell, demon wings where you can fly at your land speed.
 

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