Hordes of the Abyss.
- Thread starter JoeGKushner
- Start date
James Jacobs said:
Actually, I agree that this is a problem. At the advent of 3E, the designers were talking about "game mastery"; common knowledge among players about what made D&D what it was. The "toolbox" approach breaks that down, and it ghetto-izes different playgroups into not being able to communicate with each other.
When I get a game system, I assume it paints an entire milieu for me to dive into. If it's a toolbox approach for the DM to build what they want (like, say, d20 Modern), I personally have to throw up my hands and say, "geez, I don't have the time for that".
jeez...what's with the fanboys and bloated, unusable stats?
And for the clarification, the reason why it is a good idea to keep the range between levels 1-20 is because that is where the majority of the design and balance work took place (not that I'm claiming that the game doesn't begin to break down in the high levels of this range), and where the majority of character building options are also provided. Thus, it's the most 'fun' range. Epic, besides being of ever more dubious balance, is also not as well supported in either the core rules or supplements (for good reason).
And I have the feeling that the majority of those who have a problem with this are complaining not because they intended to throw their pcs against these as is, but because they simply wanted to do some mental masturbation with those big, bloated, useless stats, and they have some hangup about having their day dreams endorsed through an 'official' source. I.e. they are the target of most of Dieties and Demigods 'crunch' (remember how some thought they were too weak?).
And for the clarification, the reason why it is a good idea to keep the range between levels 1-20 is because that is where the majority of the design and balance work took place (not that I'm claiming that the game doesn't begin to break down in the high levels of this range), and where the majority of character building options are also provided. Thus, it's the most 'fun' range. Epic, besides being of ever more dubious balance, is also not as well supported in either the core rules or supplements (for good reason).
And I have the feeling that the majority of those who have a problem with this are complaining not because they intended to throw their pcs against these as is, but because they simply wanted to do some mental masturbation with those big, bloated, useless stats, and they have some hangup about having their day dreams endorsed through an 'official' source. I.e. they are the target of most of Dieties and Demigods 'crunch' (remember how some thought they were too weak?).
Delta said:
Why don't you have the time for that? All you have to do is play?
DM interpretation and reinterpretation is an inevitable part of the game. As long has he acts in good faith and keeps the gameplay in rough balance, i don't see how this imposes more work for you.
Sammael
Adventurer
Quite presumptuous of you, don't you think?jasamcarl said:
Actually, my main problem with the weak archfiend stats is that someday, a young player will come to me and ask me: "Hey, can we go kill this guy? He must have some phat l00t, being a demon prince and all! Just like in Diablo III!" And I will be forced to restrain myself from doing something really nasty to that player. Because it won't be his fault.
In my games, archfiends are not "end bosses." They are not entitites you just walk up to and roll initiative. If you assault an archfiend (or paragon celestial), you die, just as if you had assaulted a deity (and no, I didn't even buy D&DG... because deities should not have stats). The only way you can even remotely harm an archfiend is through cunning and/or really, really, really powerful magic. Even then, you can only temporarily incovenience the said archfiend.
ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
Delta said:
D&D does. You can still play with just the core books, no modifications.
Delta said:
If you're just a player, you don't have to worry about it. If you're a DM, they've already provided baselines stats you can use them straight from the book. Guidelines are given for those who wish to tweak them to their taste. Where's the problem?
Sammael said:
Uh huh. And this kid who is digesting the stats won't come upon the advancement chart. And it will be way too difficult for you to note that that is not how it works in your game before you go into a rage about how some kid interprets some fake monster you have a weird attachment to, allowing those who would like the solid mechanical support to live in peace...
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Gold Roger
First Post
Really, Sammael, I see where your beef lies, but you've got that with any statted archfiend. They only have to ´kill more things to take a epic archfiend.
It's all about the DM. Instead of pulling my hair out I'd say:
"Of course you can kill him. Not in his home though, he's allmighty there. But if you find a way to remove him permanently, you can try to loot his palace. There'll be others in that place though. Anyway, you're supposed to create a 1st level char right now, how'd that book get into your hands? How about your chars family has been killed by that fiend's cultist? Then you have a reason to get powerfull and kill him, like *insert kids favorite anime hero here*."
It's all about the DM. Instead of pulling my hair out I'd say:
"Of course you can kill him. Not in his home though, he's allmighty there. But if you find a way to remove him permanently, you can try to loot his palace. There'll be others in that place though. Anyway, you're supposed to create a 1st level char right now, how'd that book get into your hands? How about your chars family has been killed by that fiend's cultist? Then you have a reason to get powerfull and kill him, like *insert kids favorite anime hero here*."
Sammael
Adventurer
There is such a thing as the RPGA, where you MUST run games as written by WotC. There is no room for interpretation there. No "it doesn't work that way in my world." Now, I certainly wouldn't run that kind of game. But there are a lot of people here who play at conventions and similar events where such games are run.jasamcarl said:
Let me remind you that you are posting on a message board about D&D, a game of "play pretend" for adults. And you have a higher postcount than me. Do we want to talk about your weird attachments?before you go into a rage about how some kid interprets some fake monster you have a weird attachment to...
Sammael said:
That's a pretty nonstandard way of using fiends in a campaign, though, don't you think? Even Planes of Chaos gave stats for Graz'zt and Pazu--er, "Pazrael."
They certainly were fightable in 1e.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with using archfiends this way, but it is perhaps unreasonable to assume that a rulebook from the game's publisher would go with this variant interpretation.
A kid could kill Demogorgon for his phat lewt back in the 70s. He would have called it something else, but the fact remains.
--Erik
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