Hordes of the Abyss.

[JoeGKushner]

Cripes, they can't win. If they'd said something like that, you know as well as I do that there would be a chorus of "OOOHHHH NNNOOOOSS!!! They are admitting to a naked grab for money! How dare they!" Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

I'm not saying they can win because to me, it is a money grab. It just happens to be done up with some great articles.

I'm just not seeing the problem here. James Jacobs has explained the rationale, and given that the magazines are, again, separate entities from WotC, I don't think much more explanation is needed. Do you expect Kenzer's Kalamar stuff to stay in lockstep with WotC? It's got the official D&D logo, too, right? Just because some of the same guys doing this book are also overseeing the Dragon articles doesn't mean there has to be cross-referencing. Would it be nice? Yeah, I guess. But I think it kinda indicates that what WotC wants and what Paizo wants may not be entirely the same thing.

I agree and if someone came out and said exactly that, "Piazo and WoTC don't see eye to eye on the power level." I'd go, "Cool." But that's not quite what's being said now is it? Probably one of the problems with you have authors of different boats mingling around the same waters. Can't talk bad or counterdict one thing because it looks bad for the 'parent' so to speak.

Just my opinion mind you.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Somebody else said "you can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time...".

I personally think it is, quite simply put, very good design. Are they dipping back into the demon pool? Yes. Did people want them to? I think news of the book was greeted pretty enthusiatically. That considered, consciously taking into account things like levels people normally play at and better yet, that it varies, is an design philosphy head-and-shoulders over that under which DDG was born.

And for the book itself, it could work. But then to hit it again in Dragon with more powerful creatures invalidating the whole concept of lower powered creatures... and to hit it AFTER the book is out...

 

[Razz]

I personally am waiting for JoeGKushner to get home so he can tell us much more info.

Darn, you shoulda brought the book with ya!

 

[Shade]

In all fairness, James and Erik have always maintained that the Demonomicon and Fiendish Codex would have some overlap, and that the Demonomicon entries are much more in-depth than those in the FC. Therefore, the princes from the BovD could have appeared in the Demonomicon regardless of the changes in CR.

Now if they are to appear again in Complete Demon, well...

 

[Mercule]

And in any event, "Hordes of the Abyss" DOES support higher CR demon lords; that's what the advancing demon lord section is all about.

I think the issue, here, is that some of these sorts of things have, in the past, turned out to be not exactly the soothing balm we were expecting. We don't know exactly what you mean by "advancing demon lord section".

It could anything from a single blurb of "You can create Epic-appropriate demon lords by adding more hit dice and special abilities," to 25 pages of detailed analysis of the impacts on play along with a feat/ability list and a sample or three demon lords advanced to four different power levels. While I think the latter is ridiculous overkill, the former would be a (not-so-funny) joke. We're naturally going to assume that the "section" is on the lower end of the scale, though, because we're still digesting the knee-jerk reaction to the depowered lords.

 

[Clueless]

Erik, James, does this mean you're out from under your NDA and able to grant interviews now?

 

[Razz]

I think the issue, here, is that some of these sorts of things have, in the past, turned out to be not exactly the soothing balm we were expecting. We don't know exactly what you mean by "advancing demon lord section".

It could anything from a single blurb of "You can create Epic-appropriate demon lords by adding more hit dice and special abilities," to 25 pages of detailed analysis of the impacts on play along with a feat/ability list and a sample or three demon lords advanced to four different power levels. While I think the latter is ridiculous overkill, the former would be a (not-so-funny) joke. We're naturally going to assume that the "section" is on the lower end of the scale, though, because we're still digesting the knee-jerk reaction to the depowered lords.

Exactly what I am worried the advancement section might do, the not-so-funny joke line.

Erik, James, does this mean you're out from under your NDA and able to grant interviews now?

They're still under contract, but JoeGKushner isn't!

 

[gizmo33]

I don't get what the big deal is with the stat-blocks. It's rarely the case that anything published conforms to my homebrew CR demographics anyway, sounds like this book is one of the few items that do. (There was a time when Orcus had 120 hitpoints...)

I'm more interested in the flavor text for this book. The size of the book concerns me, and while I would like to see an efficient rehash of "what has come before", I have a pretty extensive library of old DnD stuff and I don't need to buy it in 3E format. I've seen thick tomes with no content and skinny modules with tons of content so I guess the page count isn't going to be the best measure there.

I'm looking forward to seeing a copy because the subject is one of my favorites in DnD and I can imagine something really cool. However, you can't please all of the folks all of the time and I'm usually one of those folks.

 

[DaveMage]

Erik, James, does this mean you're out from under your NDA and able to grant interviews now?

I think they just did.

 

[James Jacobs]

The "Advancng a Demon Lord" section is about 1/3 of a page, and consists of 8 or so bullet points that add on to the more general monster advancing rules detailed at the end of the Monster Manual. It's not a HUGE section, but then again it doesn't have to be since most of the heavy lifting for advancing monsters is already done in the Monster Manual.

In any event... we're not officially out from under our NDA agreement until the book's release date (which is still a couple weeks away). For all the nitty gritty details, you'll have to await the first reviews. Once the book's available in stores I (and I assume Erik) would love to answer any questions or explain what madness struck us regarding the book. In any event... I've probably said too much about it already so it's back to the hot box for me!