Hordes of the Abyss.

[Starman]

For those who want a higher powered Graz'zt, one can be found here in the Rogue's Gallery for Sepulchrave's fantastic Tales of Wyre story hour. He stats the Demon Lord at CR 30 and notes that on his home plane, Azzagrat, he is considered to have a divine rank of 1. There are also many other demons and creatures of an epic nature statted out in that thread, so check it out.

 

[zoroaster100]

After reading all the posts, and some further thought, I am now convinced the decision to use low stats for the demon lords was a mistake. I'm still interested in the book, but despite of the section on stats, not because of it. I would have preferred that those pages got used for more "fluff" detail on demon lords, other layers, or more types of regular demons, etc. I am still looking forward to the other parts of the book, but I think the lords should be statted with at least CR 23 and higher to ensure they are stronger than the CR 20 balor. I am relieved, however, that I can look forward to stronger demon lords in the Savage Tide adventure path and in the Demonomicon articles. Since I'm a Dungeon and Dragon magazine subscriber, that takes the sting out of the one part of the Fiendish Codex that may not be quite what I hoped. But the rest sound very useful and interesting.

 

[Nightfall]

In case anyone is curious, the Table of Contents for Hordes is up on WotC.com. FC:Hordes of the Abyss ToC

 

[fafhrd]

What a shame. Thanks for the heads up, Joe. I guess I can hope that Dragon Compendium II will be the real repository for the Arch Demons. preorder cancelled.

 

[Razz]

It's only really starts to get ugly if these stats simply can not match with the place these entities are supposed to hold. In Champions of Ruin they made none of the Elder Eternal Evils of Toril higher than CR 2X (IIRC).

Oh please, stop, my mind can't take it---auughh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't ever remind me again how those FR Designers turned into slushy-brained 'tards when creating the EEEs. That was HORRIBLE! Such an outcry in the FR-community was ripped open wide when that happened. Those beings are supposed to make the deities quiver...yet an average group of 19th or 20th level characters can make mince meat out of them and serve them to Elminster for breakfast.....

Such disgusting design on the EEE. Did everyone forget about the EPIC LEVEL HANDBOOK MONSTERS?! Those are legendary, deity-nightmarish, creatures!

 

[Mirtek]

Such disgusting design on the EEE. Did everyone forget about the EPIC LEVEL HANDBOOK MONSTERS?! Those are legendary, deity-nightmarish, creatures!

Like I said: I would not be so bad if they were at least at the top of the food chains. CR 28 doesn't sound like a "doom of the world creature" but if no other creature on this world has such a high CR it still works. What's really worse with the EEE was that they weren't even the highest CR creatures in their supplement. That's what I can not understand at all.

If the designers say "Kezef has to be CR 24 because with a higher CR he would be useless for most campaigns" then that's OK, I might disagree but it's a fair reason that I can't understand.

But if the very same supplement also has a CR 3X evil lich, then I just can't understand it. A Kezef with CR > 2X would be too powerfull for the PCs, but a lich with CR 3X is fine? If 3X is fine, then Kezef should have been 3X and this lich should have been 2X (wow, a 2,000 year old lichking *yawn* how impressive, considering that Kezef is merely a god hunting nightmare dog older than the world itself)

And that's the problem with the demonlords. If a great gold wyrm is CR 26, a demonlord should at least be CR 26+.

So if the demonlords are not too weak, the other creatures are too strong or the D&D multiverse just makes no sense at all.

 

[Psion]

While that is a valid point, where is this supposed to end? Why should a player ever be forced to play something as uncool as a cleric instead of just being the deity himself?

What the heck is that supposed to mean?

If Demogorgon can't be more than CR 27, what about the 20th level fighter that wants to slay the god of war? Shouldn't the god of war be made CR 27 too?

The DM has control of what level campaigns he wants to run and thus control over the CR of any entities he wants the PC to face (or not face) in play.

It's only really starts to get ugly if these stats simply can not match with the place these entities are supposed to hold.

Er, why can't they, again?

That's the point: If Demogorgon is not too weak, than many other creatures are just too strong

Again, that does not follow. They deliberately made the starting point of all the demon lords above the starting point of any of the rank-and-file demons. If you have the ability to stengthen the rank-and-file demons for the purposes of your campaigns, then you have the ability to control the lords as well.

You control the horizontal and the vertical...

As far as I have understood the earlier posts, the line that these stats only represent them outside their homereals has, for whatever reasons, not appeared in this book. So these are the stats for their true selfs.

Leaving aside for the moment that the authors have shown up here and said otherwise, so this is an editorial omission if true: The book explicitly provides you with means to extend them. What are the enhanced stats supposed to represent? Demogorgon's and orcus' older brothers that drop by every once in a while to give them wedgies? No, I don't think so. The "true selves" are what the DM wants them to be. Which is as it should be.

Sorry, I find this conclusion entirely illogical as well.

And "they didn't write these are the stats of their true selfs, so these aren't the stats for their true selfs" is no argument.

If they provided no means to extend them, I might agree. But since they did, I must insist you are incorrect.

The PHB didn't write "a first level fighter can not fly at a speed of 60 feet per round and with perfect maneuverability". So does this mean that my first level fighter actually can fly at a speed of 60 feet per round and with perfect maneuverability?

That's an entirely false analogy. Leaving aside that it could be a first level air elemental fighter with the information you have given me, a first level fighter is a game mechanical qualification.

 

[Mirtek]

Er, why can't they, again?

Because a demonlord weaker than a balor won't be a demonlord for a long time,

Again, that does not follow. They deliberately made the starting point of all the demon lords above the starting point of any of the rank-and-file demons.

But the problem isn't only with demons, but with the total picture including all creatures in D&D. Why would a LG CR26 great gold wyrm suffer the existance of a CR 22 demonlord? He would have annihilated this paragon of evil long ago.

If you have the ability to stengthen the rank-and-file demons for the purposes of your campaigns, then you have the ability to control the lords as well.

I can rewrite whatever I want, but that doesn't change the fact that the stats as written make no sense at all. Demogorgon as he's officially stated in D&D is not able to hold the place he's officially supposed to have in D&D.

There is only one Demogorgon and he's stated as he's stated in the FC and at the same time there are 40 HD balors in D&D, even if you do not play epic level games, a 20th level caster can call a 40 HD balor with a Gate spell. These creatures are assumed to exist in the same standard D&D that has the CR 27 Demogorgon. So how will a 27 HD Prince of Demons impress a 40 HD Balor?

Leaving aside for the moment that the authors have shown up here and said otherwise, so this is an editorial omission if true:

Actually the authors said: "Looking over the printed book, it looks like that's not the case" and "That's not exactly what I said. I didn't write the section in question, so I have no idea what was turned over to the editors. I seem to remember from discussions that these stats were meant to represent them "off lair," but that's my memory, not my turnover"

 

[Psion]

Because a demonlord weaker than a balor won't be a demonlord for a long time,

If a demon lord is weaker than a balor, it is because the DM made the Balor stronger and failed to do so with the lord. Again, you control the horizontal, and the vertical.

But the problem isn't only with demons, but with the total picture including all creatures in D&D. Why would a LG CR26 great gold wyrm suffer the existance of a CR 22 demonlord? He would have annihilated this paragon of evil long ago.

So, any gold dragon that has enough wisdom to have survived to great wyrm age is going to charge off the a demon infested abyss to take out the demon. Sorry, AFAIAC, arguments based on second guessing the motivations of creatures, especially one this shallow, are really easy to talk around. I could come up with reasons why a gold dragon wouldn't do this all day.

In the end, the DM is still in charge of this, just like he's in charge of the CRs. If this bothers you, up the CR to the level that makes sense for your sense of logic and self-consistency.

I can rewrite whatever I want, but that doesn't change the fact that the stats as written make no sense at all. Demogorgon as he's officially stated in D&D is not able to hold the place he's officially supposed to have in D&D.

Actually it does change that. Because the existence of the extension rules means that you can't peg it as a particular CR.

There is only one Demogorgon and he's stated as he's stated in the FC and at the same time there are 40 HD balors in D&D, even if you do not play epic level games, a 20th level caster can call a 40 HD balor with a Gate spell. These creatures are assumed to exist in the same standard D&D that has the CR 27 Demogorgon. So how will a 27 HD Prince of Demons impress a 40 HD Balor?

First off, HD =/= CR.

Second, where does the assumption lie that if you use 40 HD balors that Demogorgon is only 27 HD? As far as I can see, that assumption lies with you. So I'll agree that setup does not seem right to me. But it's your assumption that is illogical.

Actually the authors said: "Looking over the printed book, it looks like that's not the case" and "That's not exactly what I said. I didn't write the section in question, so I have no idea what was turned over to the editors. I seem to remember from discussions that these stats were meant to represent them "off lair," but that's my memory, not my turnover"

So, just blithely ingoring all the stuff that James Jacobs wrote on this very page about you controlling the power of demons and deliberately not pegging the power of demon lords?

 

[BryonD]

If a demon lord is weaker than a balor, it is because the DM made the Balor stronger and failed to do so with the lord. Again, you control the horizontal, and the vertical.

That is all well and good.
But a design choice that works poorly with your own game still reduces the value of the product to you.
And the implication of where the bar may be now set for D&D in general is discouraging.

If it all comes down to DM control and obligation to tweak things then there is no reason to ever express discontent with any product. After all, you are free to modify the CW Samurai for your games. Does that make it stop being a disappointment to you?

I've built my own stats for stuff in the past and I'll continue to do so in the future. So nothing lost.
But this sounded like a potentially great book and the more I hear the more it sounds as if the ball was dropped.