Hordes of the Abyss.

[Ripzerai]

There are all sorts of creative ways to keep other demons out of the seats of the demon princes.

Such as?

 

[DaveMage]

I'm figuring that, looking at example advancements of other critters in the MM, a 60 HD Balor would be a unique creature with unique capabilities. Notice how some other advanced creatures have different abilities granted to them, who's to say that a 60 HD Balor wouldn't be the Lord of some part of the Abyss?

Good point.

 

[Ripzerai]

So why isn't the 60 HD balor the "Prince of Demons?" In an Abyss where some of the rulers are CR 45 balors and some of them are CR 23 Demogorgon or CR 19 Juiblex, I would expect Demogorgon and Juiblex not to have much renown or importance in their plane compared to the real lords of the Abyss.

You end up with a situation where, yeah, your 20th level PCs can kill Demogorgon, but who really cares? Killing an advanced balor, now, that would be an impressive feat!

There's a balancing act to maintain, I think. Yeah, you want your 20th level PCs to be able to do amazing things at the climax of your campaign, but if you have to water down the stats of the end-villain for this to happen, their deeds are no longer amazing. And that defeats the whole point, doesn't it? The Abyss goes on as it always did, since no one important was killed.

 

[Delta]

Question to James

Mr. Jacobs, I'm very curious about the following. Putting entirely aside the issue of what CR demon lords should be... how do you correlate the stats and abilities with a particular CR?

Do you do combat playtests for HOTA and/or the Dragon articles? If so, how extensive?

 

[Pants]

So why isn't the 60 HD balor the "Prince of Demons?" In an Abyss where some of the rulers are CR 45 balors and some of them are CR 23 Demogorgon or CR 19 Juiblex, I would expect Demogorgon and Juiblex not to have much renown or importance in their plane compared to the real lords of the Abyss.

You end up with a situation where, yeah, your 20th level PCs can kill Demogorgon, but who really cares? Killing an advanced balor, now, that would be an impressive feat!

There's a balancing act to maintain, I think. Yeah, you want your 20th level PCs to be able to do amazing things at the climax of your campaign, but if you have to water down the stats of the end-villain for this to happen, their deeds are no longer amazing. And that defeats the whole point, doesn't it? The Abyss goes on as it always did, since no one important was killed.

That's all true, which is why every DM has to maintain a sense of logical balance for their own campaigns. If 60 HD Balors exist, then perhaps the level of power needs to be altered. If Archfiends can be killed, can Gods as well?

 

[Aaron L]

Phlogiston! Phlogiston! Phlogiston!

I loved Spelljammer (although I agree that crystal spheres and the phlogiston were a bit silly. Oh, and the dohwar were too).



Richard

Risking going off topic: I liked Spelljammer too, but crystal spheres and phlogiston made me gag.

 

[Aaron L]

That's all true, which is why every DM has to maintain a sense of logical balance for their own campaigns. If 60 HD Balors exist, then perhaps the level of power needs to be altered. If Archfiends can be killed, can Gods as well?

Of course they can

 

[Pants]

Of course they can

Then the Deities & Demigods power levels need to be altered to fit with the rest of the campaign then.

 

[James Jacobs]

Mr. Jacobs, I'm very curious about the following. Putting entirely aside the issue of what CR demon lords should be... how do you correlate the stats and abilities with a particular CR?

Do you do combat playtests for HOTA and/or the Dragon articles? If so, how extensive?

When I'm designing or evaluating a new monster, I start by comparing it to existing creatures (preferably those in the Monster Manual, since they've had the most "test driving"). For working on Dungeon I have a handy chart that takes the average hit points, AC, attack rolls, damage, saving throws, and special ability save DCs for all the monsters in the Monster Manual; this gives me a good idea of what a generic monster of any CR from 1 to 20 should be able to do. If his AC is low, his hit points or DR should be high. If his average damage is high, his base attack should be low. But for the most part, I try hard to make sure that the numbers are all in line with the averages, more or less.

For work on the Fiendish Codex, I extended these tables up to CR 23, but the proceedure remains the same.

There's also a good deal of common sense and art invovled in assigning a CR. If a creature's about as tough as a bugbear but it can summon CR 6 creatures, it's either got to be a higher CR than its base stats would suggest, or its base stats need to be bumped up. In cases like this, I prefer to bump up the creature's base stats.

Of course, once you start going past CR 20, it gets really difficult to peg a creature's CR. At high level play, PCs (and monsters) tend to have a LOT of abilities that can end a combat instantly with a poor roll of the dice. Death effects, petrification, and the like that increase this random factor are never good for PCs; monsters that have such attacks should probably be a little higher CRd than their stats would otherwise say, but then you have a monster that relies more on luck than design to hold its own.

I generally don't do much playtesting of monsters, since the generic stats they're all based on have already been playtested more than enough. When I'm doing something that deviates far from the norm, I'll test it out on my unsuspecting Saturday players, though... poor guys!

 

[Sammael]

Never mind... my reply was too snarky towards James.