Hordes of the Abyss.

[Derringer]

Question for a Tiefling Beguiler

Hello All,

I am actually anxious to see if this book will have anything interesting I can use with the Tiefling Beguiler I will be using in the next campaign, which we will be starting up shortly. I am not planning on playing him as a horrible evil guy....just a little questionable (in fact probably high on the good scale when it comes to someone with an abyssal bloodline).

Thus far from the review, it would appear that the Heritor feats might fit in nicely. Can you tell us a little more about some of them?

Thanks!

 

[Psion]

That is all well and good.
But a design choice that works poorly with your own game still reduces the value of the product to you.

The product is not being written for just one person. I think that the approach they have makes it far more usable to a preponderance of games than it would have if the stats were placed where the disgruntled posters in this thread would have it. If I only ever run campaigns to level 20, it's more usable than a CR 30 set of stats to me. If I run campaigns on into the epic and want demon lords to be literally divine, I can use these stats as avatars as the group is on their way up the levels.

And the implication of where the bar may be now set for D&D in general is discouraging.

That level 20 (or before) is a practical limit for most folks? I think you are putting the cart before the horse. It's the audience driving that, not the publisher.

If it all comes down to DM control and obligation to tweak things then there is no reason to ever express discontent with any product. After all, you are free to modify the CW Samurai for your games. Does that make it stop being a disappointment to you?

No. But it's sure cute when you pretend to understand my stance better than I do.

This product is flexible. It lets you scale the demon lords as you wish. That not all DMs have the same expectations to power level caps can't be helped.

CW Samurai I dislike precisely because it is inflexible and could be done as a fighter with a new feat chain. For HoTA to fall into the same ballpark, they would have had to ignore previous incarnations of demon lords that essentially worked right the first time and statted out the demon lords as advanced balors.

 

[BryonD]

The product is not being written for just one person. I think that the approach they have makes it far more usable to a preponderance of games than it would have if the stats were placed where the disgruntled posters in this thread would have it. If I only ever run campaigns to level 20, it's more usable than a CR 30 set of stats to me. If I run campaigns on into the epic and want demon lords to be literally divine, I can use these stats as avatars as the group is on their way up the levels.

Fine, but I'm talking about whether or not the book appeals to me.
I've already agreed multiple times that different stats may be used as the DM sees fit. There is plenty of space between "literally divine" and lower CR than a Solar.

That level 20 (or before) is a practical limit for most folks? I think you are putting the cart before the horse. It's the audience driving that, not the publisher.

No. That L20 (pratical limit or not) is suddenly on the same par as a demon lord. This is a change and it does not imply good things for future development nor does it support a system consistency.

You said that you would be complaining as well if this was supposed to be their true selves and not just on other planes. Well, it has been stated that this is in fact the case. Have you changed you mind since you made that statement?

I assure you that if further clarification comes along and it IS in there, then that will go a long way to improve my view of the product.

No. But it's sure cute when you pretend to understand my stance better than I do.

I was kinda hoping for a slightest less absurd response.
If turning around your points on you means that I'm claiming to understand your stance better than you do, then clearly you must be saying that you understand mine better when you use those points against me.

No? Of course not. It would be absurd for me to claim such and it was absurd of you to do so.

This product is flexible. It lets you scale the demon lords as you wish. That not all DMs have the same expectations to power level caps can't be helped.

CW Samurai I dislike precisely because it is inflexible and could be done as a fighter with a new feat chain. For HoTA to fall into the same ballpark, they would have had to ignore previous incarnations of demon lords that essentially worked right the first time and statted out the demon lords as advanced balors.

Ah, but you have also commented on the issue that a perfectly good samurai was displaced by the CW samurai, which is now the default D&D samurai. Does the same not apply now to demon lords? I can make Orcus be whatever I want. But for future WotC products, modules, whatever, this is THE Orcus of D&D.

I agree with you that the various power level expectations of DMs can not be helped.
Do you think there are DMs out there who actually want an official standard solar to be more powerful than official Orcus on his home plane? Because if the audience drove this choice then that must be the audience.

 

[Pants]

Yeah, but honestly, I think the 60-HD balor is a design flaw of the balor, rather than something the demon lords should be based on. It may have been better design to cap the advancement of non-lord demons (and devils) at 30 or 40 HD in the MM 3.5 (since the lords had been defined in the BoVD).

I'm figuring that, looking at example advancements of other critters in the MM, a 60 HD Balor would be a unique creature with unique capabilities. Notice how some other advanced creatures have different abilities granted to them, who's to say that a 60 HD Balor wouldn't be the Lord of some part of the Abyss?

 

[The Serge]

I'm figuring that, looking at example advancements of other critters in the MM, a 60 HD Balor would be a unique creature with unique capabilities. Notice how some other advanced creatures have different abilities granted to them, who's to say that a 60 HD Balor wouldn't be the Lord of some part of the Abyss?

Then don't call it a balor.

And which ones have real unique abilities...?

 

[jasamcarl]

Fine, but I'm talking about whether or not the book appeals to me.
I've already agreed multiple times that different stats may be used as the DM sees fit. There is plenty of space between "literally divine" and lower CR than a Solar.


No. That L20 (pratical limit or not) is suddenly on the same par as a demon lord. This is a change and it does not imply good things for future development nor does it support a system consistency.

You said that you would be complaining as well if this was supposed to be their true selves and not just on other planes. Well, it has been stated that this is in fact the case. Have you changed you mind since you made that statement?

I assure you that if further clarification comes along and it IS in there, then that will go a long way to improve my view of the product.


I was kinda hoping for a slightest less absurd response.
If turning around your points on you means that I'm claiming to understand your stance better than you do, then clearly you must be saying that you understand mine better when you use those points against me.

No? Of course not. It would be absurd for me to claim such and it was absurd of you to do so.


Ah, but you have also commented on the issue that a perfectly good samurai was displaced by the CW samurai, which is now the default D&D samurai. Does the same not apply now to demon lords? I can make Orcus be whatever I want. But for future WotC products, modules, whatever, this is THE Orcus of D&D.

I agree with you that the various power level expectations of DMs can not be helped.
Do you think there are DMs out there who actually want an official standard solar to be more powerful than official Orcus on his home plane? Because if the audience drove this choice then that must be the audience.

Uh, yes, because I bet the majority of the audience is only interested in usable stats and is creative enough to come up with fluff consistency themselves, as oppossed to many of the fanboys in this thread.

This is perhaps the dumbest reaction to any product I've ever read on this forum.

 

[Pants]

Then don't call it a balor.

Who said you had to?

And which ones have real unique abilities...?

Dreadwraith - Lifesense.

 

[Mirtek]

Uh, yes, because I bet the majority of the audience is only interested in usable stats and is creative enough to come up with fluff consistency themselves, as oppossed to many of the fanboys in this thread.

So give me fluff consistency that explains how these demonlords are able to rule in an environment where there are thousands of creatures more powerfull than them.

How does a CR 19 demonlord rule over hundreds of balors? How does a CR 20 archdevil impress all these hellfire wyrms?

 

[Ripzerai]

Again, that does not follow. They deliberately made the starting point of all the demon lords above the starting point of any of the rank-and-file demons.

Unfortunately, they didn't. Juiblex is CR 19, Baphomet is CR 20, and Yeenoghu is CR 20, so two of them are at about the same threat level as a balor and one of them is less threatening.

Granted, CR isn't an absolute measure of who can defeat whom, but from what we know about their raw CR it looks like at least three unique fiends, rulers of vast territories in the Abyss, are at about the same level as the rank-and-file demons.

The product is not being written for just one person.

No, it's apparently been written for people whose campaigns are more about having wild, nonsensical fun than being self-consistent. And that's fine - that's a valid approach. But when people point out that there's dissonance there, that the Abyss as written doesn't really make sense now, they're not wrong.

The product seems to be aimed at the subset of people who not only stop their campaigns at 20th level, but who nonetheless think their PCs ought to be able to take on threats that, in a campaign where logic was an issue, they would have no chance against.

I am not in any way denigrating the beer-and-prezels crowd. I'm well aware that it's a game and not necessarily "serious" epic fantasy. But the point that this is, indeed, not consistent with a serious game is still valid.

A mortal king keeps his powerful knights in line because they respect his right to rule, or know that the king's other followers respect the king's right to rule more than they do that of the knights. Demons are, by definition, chaotic creatures who care nothing for the rule of law.

A CR 23 Demogorgon, sharing a layer with non-unique balors and so forth (and what happened to Demogorgon's advanced marilith bodyguards, or Severik the balor fighter 10?) isn't a ruler anymore; he's a mascot at best. The other demons keep him around because they think he's lucky - as long as his luck holds out. Or they respect him because he's old and wise and reminds them of their rich history. They come to him when they have problems, and if he gives them good advice they say, "Thank you, great lord. Once again, you have shown why we don't bother to kill you." But he doesn't rule. If he has an off day and gives bad advice, they kill him. They're a plane full of homocidal megalomaniacs prone to childish fits of rage, what do you expect? There's only one of him, and he's surrounded by enemies - even his closest allies are sharks waiting for a sign of weakness. What's the worst that can happen if he dies? Anarchy? They're demons; anarchy only stimulates them.

I can see some Abyssal lords - I'm thinking mainly of Graz'zt - keeping their troops in line through sheer charisma and intellect, but the traditional way differences are settled in the Abyss is through bullying and intimidation. The Abyss is a Darwinian nightmare realm, and survival of the fittest is the rule its denizens adhere to the most.

 

[jester47]

Possession, I want to know about the possession rules, Joe, you never covered that in your review. How does it work? Previous possession rules have been lame.

Also, is there a shadow demon in there? I loved the sheer violence of the 3.0 shadowdemon, do we get new stats (and maybe a new name because I did not see them in the TOC?)

CR 20 demonlords are just fine for me as I don't go into epic levels. There are all sorts of creative ways to keep other demons out of the seats of the demon princes.