Hordes of the Abyss.

[MacDuff_1969]

The section on the origins of demons is merely a suggestion that demons arose from the Abyss after the deities, devils, and other powers left that plane and went to others. Pretty boring stuff.

On the contrary, I applaud this hook!

In fact, I will go so far (regardless of its popularity among boardmembers) to say that FC2 should echo this line and leave the current racial factions of CE/NE/LE as the current manifestations of their realms.

Said differently, for me, Chaos embodies that metaphorically murky, dangerous time/place from which we all draw our nightmares. Also, chaos is that which preceeds not only civilization, but also the taming of the environment and ultimately the codification of laws (regardless of where you end up on the alignment wheel).

Also, by leaving the origin of all 3 species undefined it mitigates the overarching power problem (even if it is only a conceptually inferred problem) given to the yugoloths with their: 1-baern benefactors, 2-power bases on 3 sets of the 5 most evil planes on the great wheel, 3-permanent numbers regardless of attrition, and 4-ability to pull the strings ultimately in the bloodwar (which leaves the other two fiendish races as their patsies).

Lastly, I don't see this or any origin myth/story as the bottom line, but for me it is certainly better than one that is just a form of racial propoganda.

Said differently, the yugoloths may have the longest recorded histories in the lower planes but only likely due to them never having been the object of the demons/devils long-term ire (forcing it to be torn from their hands by their arch-rivals) or consumed by infighting among their own powers/lords.

Long live rumor, innuendo and even racial propoganda ... as long as it allows for gaming diversity and balance among the alignments.

 

[Shemeska]

On the contrary, I applaud this hook!

In fact, I will go so far (regardless of its popularity among boardmembers) to say that FC2 should echo this line and leave the current racial factions of CE/NE/LE as the current manifestations of their realms.

Said differently, for me, Chaos embodies that metaphorically murky, dangerous time/place from which we all draw our nightmares. Also, chaos is that which preceeds not only civilization, but also the taming of the environment and ultimately the codification of laws (regardless of where you end up on the alignment wheel).

Also, by leaving the origin of all 3 species undefined it mitigates the overarching power problem (even if it is only a conceptually inferred problem) given to the yugoloths with their: 1-baern benefactors, 2-power bases on 3 sets of the 5 most evil planes on the great wheel, 3-permanent numbers regardless of attrition, and 4-ability to pull the strings ultimately in the bloodwar (which leaves the other two fiendish races as their patsies).

Lastly, I don't see this or any origin myth/story as the bottom line, but for me it is certainly better than one that is just a form of racial propoganda.

Said differently, the yugoloths may have the longest recorded histories in the lower planes but only likely due to them never having been the object of the demons/devils long-term ire (forcing it to be torn from their hands by their arch-rivals) or consumed by infighting among their own powers/lords.

Long live rumor, innuendo and even racial propoganda ... as long as it allows for gaming diversity and balance among the alignments.

If there's at least a mention to the Heart of Darkness mythos, even if just as one competing legend, then I'm fine with it. Competing, contradictory legends, all of whom might be correct in some manner is fine with me. Planescape was filled with that sort of delicious, richly mythical material. I just don't want a firm new answer to toss out the previous lore, precisely because the prior lore was so rich.

I like hazy origin stories.

I wrote up my own variation of the Baernaloths creating the Tanar'ri out of the metaphysical waste of the purification of the yugoloths, portraying the pre-Tanar'ri denizens of the Abyss watching as the skies opened, boiling with a rain of larvae who matured and mutated, turning into the first Tanar'ri before they even hit the ground like a gnashing, screaming rain, hungry above all else.

If the ideas tossed out in the FC:I on Tanar'ri origin are still hazy, and don't attempt to just blanket contradict the Baern mythos, I can work with them too. I can find a delicious irony if the Baernaloths took their children and showed them the Abyss, opened their eyes and showed them the newborne Tanar'ri, telling them "We created them, and we give them to you to manipulate. Do well, and in time we shall let you control them directly as we are capable of. Show yourselves worthy as our firstborn, our chosen heralds of the Waste, and we will share our power and our secrets with you."

But what if they had neglected to tell the Yugoloths the truth, what if the Yugoloths had accepted the word of their parents and creators as gospel, never suspecting that the Baernaloths would have lied to them? What if they had shown them the newly forming Tanar'ri, a young race of the Abyss, but neglected to inform the Yugoloths of the older denizens that had come before those demons. The Baernaloths would smile amongst themselves, cackling, empowered by the notion of having perverted truth amongst even their own 'favored' creations, promising them much, promising them everything if only they would obey, if only they could prove themselves worthy.

The Yugoloths, eager little perversions of morality taken flesh, they complied, building and embracing a virtual religion with themselves as supplicants and messiahs all at once to the godhead of the Baernaloths, looking for truths and secrets and powers that in truth, would never be theirs and would never have been given to them in the first place. They too were simply rats in the experiment of Evil, rats in their own little maze, taking their notes and observations, never realizing they were subjects rather than anything of any importance in the grand scale of the multiverse. In the end, not power, not importance, not meaning nor purpose, but only loss and misery were all that could be handed to them from the empty, diseased hands of their makers.


Hazy origin myths allow me to pick and play with subjective little 'what if' truths. I can have the 'loths as the ultimate masters of the lower planes, or simply victims themselves. Give me hazy origin myths that compete with one another, and give me ones that don't try to rewrite what we already know from the 2e material.

 

[jasamcarl]

So give me fluff consistency that explains how these demonlords are able to rule in an environment where there are thousands of creatures more powerfull than them.

How does a CR 19 demonlord rule over hundreds of balors? How does a CR 20 archdevil impress all these hellfire wyrms?

There is this thing called politics...there is this thing called tradition..and there are various other factors that influence real societies but which many of the self-described champion's of 'logic' and 'consistency' prefer not to think about.

Ex: Stalin was not superman, yet he ruled over an state with tens and hundreds of millions of people.

Some people have a pretty silly, reductionist notion of 'power'.

 

[BronzeGolem]

I'm figuring that, looking at example advancements of other critters in the MM, a 60 HD Balor would be a unique creature with unique capabilities. Notice how some other advanced creatures have different abilities granted to them, who's to say that a 60 HD Balor wouldn't be the Lord of some part of the Abyss?

In addition to the point that The Serge made, a 60 HD Balor when compared to the stats that are provided in Hordes of the Abyss would not only be a Lord, it'd be quite likely to overwhelm a lot of other Lords if the stats in Hordes represent their Aspects.

I'll look at the book when it comes out, so the numbers might be better or worse when I actually see them. With that being said, Erik Mona wrote earlier:

In my campaign, the roughly CR 20 demon lords in "Hordes of the Abyss" would reflect the most powerful aspects of the demon lords outside their home layers, where they would be significantly more powerful. That said, these guys are considerably powerful. Demogorgon, for example, has 499 hit points and 27 Hit Dice, which makes him pretty damn tough. I'd argue that these stats make Demogorgon more useful to 90% of D&D campaigns, since far fewer players seem to run epic level games than seem to run psionics, and psionics fans are a tiny subset of D&D players.

In comparison, a 60 HD Balor, assuming that you don’t increase the SR as HD increases or the use of any epic rules whatsoever, has 990 hp (also using assumption 2-meaning that the Con isn't actually higher). Assuming equal strength between Demogorgon and the 60 HD Balor, the 60 HD will have their most powerful attack at +70 or so, while Demogorgon will have it's most powerful attack at around +42 (not compensating for Demogorgon’s size, or whether it might have weapon focus feats, but even so, they wouldn’t overcome entirely the size penalties). Accordingly, the 60 HD Balor is likely to do a lot more damage to Demogorgon, even keeping in mind that the Balor probably won’t be able to penetrate Demogorgon’s DR.

Then, there’s the matter of the saves.

Assuming there aren’t any ‘no saves available’ qualities on the part of Demogorgon, also assuming that Demogorgon had a Charisma of 40, the saving throw DC for Demogorgon’s special qualities would be 10+13 (1/2 HD) +15 (Cha modifier) =38. A 60 HD Balor, in comparison, will have saving throws of Fort +44 Ref +38 Will +39, even using the assumptions that:

1) The 60 HD Balor didn’t buy Great Fortitude or any of the analogous feats (which it probably would).

2) The 60 HD Balor didn’t spend any of the ability points it would get from standard advancement.

This means that the 60 HD Balor is capable of passing every single save against whatever Demogorgon does. For spells, the issue is worse.

The point I'm trying to make is that I don't think that downgrading Demogorgon (or for that matter, downgrading everything else to make sure they can't overwhelm a lower-power Demogorgon) really solves the problem.

 

[Mirtek]

There is this thing called politics...there is this thing called tradition..and there are various other factors that influence real societies but which many of the self-described champion's of 'logic' and 'consistency' prefer not to think about.

Ex: Stalin was not superman, yet he ruled over an state with tens and hundreds of millions of people.

Some people have a pretty silly, reductionist notion of 'power'.

The sowjet union wasn't the abyss, it's citizen weren't demons.

 

[Psion]

You said that you would be complaining as well if this was supposed to be their true selves and not just on other planes. Well, it has been stated that this is in fact the case.

Joe said "he didn't see it".
Erik has said that was the intention.

That does not equate to that "in fact being the case" until someone gets a chance to better scrutinize it. If it is, the contributors to the book have already shared their intentions and it's an editorial omission.

I was kinda hoping for a slightest less absurd response.
If turning around your points on you means that I'm claiming to understand your stance better than you do, then clearly you must be saying that you understand mine better when you use those points against me.

Whatever, Byron. You are digging up positions on unrelated topics in an attempt to demonstrate some manner of inconsistency. I am not doing the same to you.

Ah, but you have also commented on the issue that a perfectly good samurai was displaced by the CW samurai, which is now the default D&D samurai. Does the same not apply now to demon lords?

I've already said why I do not see the situations in the least bit equivalent. If you are just going to repeat your questions and try to pick apart my viewpoint from every angle, this is going to be a long thread. If you have a long enough memory to recall the CW threads, then you should also know that I'm not a "pick my opinion at random and back justify it" sort of guy. If I like -- or don't like -- something, there is usually a reason.

 

[Delta]

When I'm designing or evaluating a new monster, I start by comparing it to existing creatures...

James, thanks so much! I've been acutely curious about what happens "behind the curtain" on these kinds of projects.

 

[Psion]

No, it's apparently been written for people whose campaigns are more about having wild, nonsensical fun than being self-consistent. And that's fine - that's a valid approach. But when people point out that there's dissonance there, that the Abyss as written doesn't really make sense now, they're not wrong.

You are making it out as if this is a canonical statement. James Jacobs has already made the point that the point was to not to peg the CRs of the demon lords. The Dragons are also official content too, and feature demon lords in the CR 30 range. The point is not to make a canonical reference, but to make the statistics usable to a wide variety of games.

 

[BryonD]

Joe said "he didn't see it".
Erik has said that was the intention.

Agreed and I certainly hope it turns out that I am the one wrong here. I will be quite happy to be wrong. But it seems designer intent doesn't always end up between the covers.

That does not equate to that "in fact being the case" until someone gets a chance to better scrutinize it. If it is, the contributors to the book have already shared their intentions and it's an editorial omission.

As I said, I hope I am wrong.

Whatever, Byron. You are digging up positions on unrelated topics in an attempt to demonstrate some manner of inconsistency. I am not doing the same to you.


I've already said why I do not see the situations in the least bit equivalent. If you are just going to repeat your questions and try to pick apart my viewpoint from every angle, this is going to be a long thread. If you have a long enough memory to recall the CW threads, then you should also know that I'm not a "pick my opinion at random and back justify it" sort of guy. If I like -- or don't like -- something, there is usually a reason.

I haven't repeated questions other than to provide specific responses.

I don't care about the inconsitency so much as the critical comments towards others for holding the same kind of opinion on this issue that you hold on others.

Some very good reasons for having a concern for this issue have been presented. Reasons that have not been adequately answered. Are you actually infering that this is something special about you that needs to be called out as different than others?
I'm not certain who you are trying to imply is picking opinions at random and back justifying. I don't know of anyone in this thread doing that.

Honestly, I'd really rather talk about the pros and cons of the issue at hand.

 

[Ripzerai]

The Dragons are also official content too, and feature demon lords in the CR 30 range. The point is not to make a canonical reference, but to make the statistics usable to a wide variety of games.

Right. And in those games where Baphomet is only CR 20, what I said applies - that would be the subgroup that cares more about having wild, ludicrous, yet comparatively low-level fun than creating a self-consistent setting. And that's what the default is now; that's part of the advertising for the book, that what's in this book supercedes everything previous as far as the official version of the game goes.

I don't think there is a "canon" in core D&D, as (like you said) the various books and magazines contradict one another all the time. The githyanki in the Planar Handbook are "eons" old and the millennium-old Lich-Queen is 150th in her line; in Lords of Madness they're less than 2000 years old and this can't possibly be true unless the average reign of a Vlaakith is less than 7 years; in Dungeon #100 the lich-queen is killed, while she's still around everywhere else. And it's all "official," but there's no canon in the sense of a consistent storyline.

There isn't a "canon," but in many cases there's a default. D&D doesn't have a canonical cosmology, but it has a default one. There's no canonical pantheon for the game, but there's a core pantheon for the sake of an example. The lords of the Abyss may not have a canonical CR, but Baphomet's default CR is 20 and if you want it to be different you're either going to have to buy an issue of Dragon or do some math homework.

And I'm saying that when people say the default CRs supplied in this particular book don't make the Abyss a very consistent place, they're not wrong. They're all about the same level as rank-and-file unadvanced balors, two of them equal to balors and one even less, in a plane full of anarchic bullies with anger management problems. Even the most devout anti-epic DMs might well have problems with their players maintaining suspension of disbelief.

So I'm not saying it's "canon," but I'm saying that if you accept that Baphomet is CR 20 and you accept that balors are also CR 20, then you have a situation where Baphomet is continually threatened by his own minions, who (as demons) don't really understand the concept of loyalty, only ever-shifting situational ethics (or the utter lack thereof). As a mortal ruler he might be okay, but as a demon he's in bad trouble.

Erik has said that was the intention.

He said it was his intention, and what he thought might have been his fellow designer's intention, but that he didn't write that part of the book and wasn't sure. From what JoeGK said, the book states bluntly that the Abyssal rulers are rarely encountered outside of the Abyss.

In other words, Erik's not the designer of that part of the book, and he seems to have been mistaken.

This discussion has become very narrowly focused on this one issue, when it's a comparatively tiny part of the book, and that's wrong. But it is a real issue, a real inconsistency in the default version of the game.