Hordes of the Abyss.

[ThirdWizard]

I don't see why a demon lord necessarily has to be "more powerful" (as measured on a CR scale) than its underlings, even in as chaotic a hierarchy as hell.

It's anti-climatic. You just expect the BBEG to be bigger and badder than his minions.

 

[Ripzerai]

B.S. This would imply that there is no chance of any type of political alliance.

No, it doesn't. You seem to be assuming that Baphomet is capable of making alliances, but a balor isn't.

Both are equally capable of 'enlightened self-interest,' so then we're back to comparing CRs again.

Might makes right, but 'might' does not have to be personal might.

It does in the Abyss. Why should Graz'zt bother to ally himself with Baphomet if a balor of equal might makes a better offer?

 

[Mirtek]

It does in the Abyss. Why should Graz'zt bother to ally himself with Baphomet if a balor of equal might makes a better offer?

Better question: Why even bother listening to the offer if he can just slay him and take all his stuff anyway?

 

[Psion]

No, it doesn't. You seem to be assuming that Baphomet is capable of making alliances, but a balor isn't.

To me, the fact that one is a demon lord and the other isn't suggests just that. (And I'm think this is more of a matter of treachery, culling secrets, and blackmail than anything a mortal would call a political alliance, but the point remains.)

 

[luke_twigger]

It's anti-climatic. You just expect the BBEG to be bigger and badder than his minions.

If the PCs first defeat the BBEG's bodyguard (Bbn20) will they really feel cheated and robbed when they later face the BBEG (Wiz17)? Not if they're having to contend with 9th level spells being thrown their way. And in any case why should the players ever learn exactly what CRs any of their foes are?

My point was that making a simple comparison Balor CR20 > Jubilex CR19 isn't necessarily the best measure of "power". Determining CR is an inexact science at best.

Plus pretty much nobody on this thread knows exactly what stats, powers and special abilities CR19 Jubilex has been given. So all the arguments that he's "less powerful" than a Balor are all based on a single CR value.

 

[Shade]

Plus pretty much nobody on this thread knows exactly what stats, powers and special abilities CR19 Jubilex has been given. So all the arguments that he's "less powerful" than a Balor are all based on a single CR value.

But that is the measurement used to compare the power of monsters. If a group of four 19th-level characters can defeat Juiblex, but can't defeat a balor, then the balor must be more powerful.

 

[luke_twigger]

But that is the measurement used to compare the power of monsters. If a group of four 19th-level characters can defeat Juiblex, but can't defeat a balor, then the balor must be more powerful.

What if a group of four 19th-level characters can defeat a Bbn20, but can't defeat a Wiz17, then the Wiz17 must be more powerful?

 

[GVDammerung]

Late joining the thread and catching up but I think something is being grotesquely missed here.

I am disappointed to hear that the demon princes are being powered down because it effects the MYTHOLOGY of the game. Say it with me - the MYTHOLOGY of the game.

D&D is in the first instance a game to be played and one can boot about this rule or that, this approach or that. It also presents a story line, a mythology. Most often this is seen in specific settings but divorced from settings (Planescape now being a dead setting like so many) The Great Wheel is its own mythology, always has been, and the lower planes are perhaps its richest source of myth.

When a powerful extra-planar entities stats are done over, particularly if inconsistently or with no in game explanation, the mythology is damaged. The hero/villain is suddenly less so and for no apparent reason. Canon is no longer as canonical.

For those who enjoy reading about and tracking the mythology of the game, depowering with no in game reason, is just bad design, even if it might be justified in terms of pure mechanics. D&D for many is not just the mechanics of the RAW. It is the mytholgy and the story. Its the read not the rules. So even if you never play the beastie and just read about it, depowering is an issue.

 

[Ripzerai]

What if a group of four 19th-level characters can defeat a Bbn20, but can't defeat a Wiz17, then the Wiz17 must be more powerful?

Yes, as far as the PCs know. And they're the ones for whom "anti-climatic" is an issue.

 

[Nightfall]

*does like the idea that the "throne" of Orcus could convert a balor into the next Orcus* It certainly has the benefit of Orcus coming back even after "dying."