Hordes of the Abyss.

[JustaPlayer]

However, that makes us wonder, is the failure really having CR 20 Demon Princes or is it the fact that we have CR20 Balor in the first place?

Should epic level play be a requirement or an option.

Every creature a DM uses is an option. I don't suggest every using them all. One of the problems with dumbing everything down to 20th level is that you reduce the use of Epic Handbook by not suppling options for epic play.

I'm with the boat of people who say Demon Lords should be more powerful than that. These are cosmic forces and should stand head and shoulders above the troops and field generals. They rule by fear and intimidation, having them weaker or just barely stronger than the troops they lead just doesn't make sense.

Then there is the fact that these entities have power struggles with gods. Yet, even at the best stats seen to date, a god only has to blink to wipe them all away.

 

[JoeGKushner]

The alternative is to use them like Super Villains!

Orcus
Demogorgon
Dagon
Pale Night
Grazz't

When these five demon lords come together as the League of Villains, it's up to the players to take them on in a cosmic chest match!

Be here next week, same bat time, same bat channel when Iuz, 1st edition Zeus, and 2nd edition pre-god Vecna team up together to challenge their fates by creating 4th edition before Wizards of the Coast. can the player's stop them!

 

[Gold Roger]

Well, I've asked should epic level play be a requirement. It seems at the moment it is more than it isn't, but is in some weird twilight zone of gaming.

My problem with epic levels isn't it's gameplay-yes, I've never played or even looked much at it. My problem with it is that it is limitless and thus no good basis for evaluating power levels in a RPG. But D&D as is, is build around guidelines, so is there a total disregard of baselines here? If there was, the whole confusion could have been averted.

 

[jester47]

While that good be used as a good reason why they're slain every 14 days (although in the infinite chaos of the Abyss they would certainly still be slain every 14 day as there would always be someone thinking of him as able to stay himself after the takeover), that still doesn't explain why they can rule. The balor might not slay him, but he wouldn't serve him either

Well, I think it would be because of the plane. You could say that the demon lord is the manifestation of his layers of the abyss. I would say that demons know this, and thus they feel compelled to obey. I see it like the CR 23 Orcus or whatever is the interface where the layer/layers of the abyss let their will be known. No one wants to take on Orcus on his home layer because they don't want to fight an entire layer. It is said in the PS material that the demonlords have complete control of thier layers and they bend to their will, so this would make sense that the demon lords are avatars of the layers themselves.

This works just as well as my previous example and could work with it or independant of it. And that is the truth, that the demon lord's body alone in an empty box is CR @21+, but the question is one of environment- they literally control the plane. So to take them on would be to fight the plane. Even the 60HD Balor does not have that type of arsenal. You don't need God Mode when you have unlimited respawn.

 

[Kunimatyu]

I kinda see both sides here.

On the one hand, putting the demon lords where they can be fought by 20th level parties is a pretty good idea from a gameplay perspective. It allows the statblocks to be useful, as opposed to a Dicefreaks CR "insane" that pretty much just reiterates their unkillability. And killing a demon lord IS a pretty neat end to your average campaign.

On the other hand, demon lords ARE incredibly powerful, and should not be on the same power level as a Balor, Pit Fiend, or Solar. If they have built-in ways to kick a balor's face in, then it's not so big a deal, but as long as a Balor can tear apart Jubilex, it's a little lame.

Me, I'm going to use the statblocks as avatars, and either slap the Paragon template on the "real" fiend or simply have it statless. But I wish the statblocks in Hordes had been presented as avatars, and not as something a Solar could take down by itself.

 

[Ripzerai]

Should epic level play be a requirement or an option.

It's an option. You have the option to stop at 20th level, with 20th level foes like balors. Or you can continue on, and fight foes provided for higher levels.

 

[Nightfall]

The alternative is to use them like Super Villains!

Orcus
Demogorgon
Dagon
Pale Night
Grazz't

When these five demon lords come together as the League of Villains, it's up to the players to take them on in a cosmic chest match!

Orcus kills at chess.

 

[D'karr]

Gosh, you are right, but I didn't mention CR at all in my post. i'm quite aware of CR inconsistancies....pit fiends can kill balors 99% of the time. However, I said "more powerful" Making Jubilex CR 19 suggests to me (based off the fact that Demogorgon is CR 23 with 27HD, balors are CR 20 with 20 HD, and CR=+2HD for outsiders) that he may in fact, have less or equal HD to a balor. He is 'less powerful' than balors. And for everyone who feels that this is ok, or even worse, a GOOD THING, I'm asking what sense does it make? Wyrmlings are less powerful than Adult Dragons. Cornugons are less powerful than pit fiends. And demon lords should be more powerful than regular demons. It's really that simple.

Only if you equate power with CR. Power in that context can be attributed to many things. The leader of a nation does not have to be the guy that can single handedly kill everyone of his subjects. Looking at CR in that context then makes it an arms race between creatures.

Each of the Demon Lords has power more on the political sense, even if they are not the most powerful physically.

 

[jester47]

Every creature a DM uses is an option. I don't suggest every using them all. One of the problems with dumbing everything down to 20th level is that you reduce the use of Epic Handbook by not suppling options for epic play.

1. "dumbing" down is a bad term. It implies that the only reason one would not use the ELH is because one was not smart enough.
2. Limiting your level advancement at 20 is completely reasonable as the ELH really kind of sucks.
3. My opinions of course.

 

[jester47]

I'm with the boat of people who say Demon Lords should be more powerful than that. These are cosmic forces and should stand head and shoulders above the troops and field generals. They rule by fear and intimidation, having them weaker or just barely stronger than the troops they lead just doesn't make sense.

See post #414

Then there is the fact that these entities have power struggles with gods. Yet, even at the best stats seen to date, a god only has to blink to wipe them all away.

4. DaDg along with PoF are the other two books in my "will never use it" trilogy.