Hordes of the Abyss.

[reanjr]

Off the top of my head, does anyone know what the name of the demon that balor's were supposed to fear? The one that keept people in the Blood War when they deserted? Was it the wolf headed thing with the snake head? If so, he also got nerfed to a CR 19.

Molydeus. And that sounds exactly right. Balors are CR 20 and molydei were always a bit weaker.

 

[reanjr]

I'd probably have to re-do the XP chart to slow progression down, and that's not something my players - or I - would like to do. We progress pretty quickly right now (we went from 10th level to epic in about 24 sessions).

Does anyone remember way before the ELH, Wizards provided a preview of where they thought they were going with the epic rules? The idea was that after 20th level, progression would greatly slow down. Each level, instead of getting all the benefits of a level increase (hp, attack bonus, spells, feats, skills, etc.) you would pick one (so you'd gain 10 hp, or learn 2 feats, etc.)

It sounded great and the ELH was a HUGE disappoint to me once I found out they drastically changed their focus (most likely due to players wanting to twink their characters to extremes). I actually created my own epic rules based on this concept after I saw that the ELH was so drastically flawed in concept.

I remember they had a preview of a sorcerer done at like three different epic levels. Does anyone know what happened to this or where to find it? My google-fu is failing me and I can't find it on Wizards's site.

 

[reanjr]

Or Dalamar. (or Rastalin)

Or Mordy (or the other eight)

Or the Seven Sisters (other Choosen. etc...)

Too many of 'em that if you're playing in a FR game, it makes no sense that they'd be anything other than the high priest of Bane's slaves. "Hey Bane, I need a hot bath! Orcus, you're up. Make sure to lotion those hands this time. I don't want no cold hands on my shoulders." (Orcus shuddering in the background...)

Actually, I think the highest Raistlin has ever been officially statted is 20. Dalamar at like 18. Dragonlance has always done well at keeping the really powerful NPCs within the core RAW. Under current edition, Laurana, for example, was 16th level before she died and she is probably the most powerful of the main Chronicles group outside of Raistlin and Goldmoon. Dalamar is listed as 17th and Palin is 18th at the height of their power. Unfortunately, Raistlin is starting his career in one sourcebook and dead by the next, so I don't have his stats, but 20 would be max as 3e DL doesn't use epic levels. And he killed a god.

Anyway, this exemplifies how, IMO, NPCs and monsters should be designed. If you don't scale everything else wildly, 20th level IS extraordinarily powerful. CR 24 is almost untouchable.

 

[reanjr]

I suspect you already know the answer: WotC feels no obligation to be consistent. Not that I mind that much.

I'll be very surprised if Tyrants of the Nine Hells doesn't put lesser diabolic nobles at about the same challenge level as major Abyssal lords are in Hordes of the Abyss.



I don't get that people who don't want to advance the game to epic level nonetheless think their PCs should be able to off epic level threats - who think the whole campaign setting should be tailored to fit their own lack of ambition. When you set a maximum power level in the game, it seems like you should accept that there's a limit to how much the PCs are going to reasonably accomplish. If the game ends at 3rd level, probably no one's going to kill a fire giant. If it ends at 20th level, probably no one's going to be destroying the eons-old rulers of the planes.

It seems like a good end-boss for a 20th level game would be a powerful balor with a few class levels. I thought that was what balors were for in 3.5 - to provide appropriate threats to 20th level characters.

Makes sense to me.

Depends on what you feel is epic though. Conan, for example, is firmly in the realm of non-epic, but demonic deities are present and intended to be fought. Many people like the idea of epic stories and combats but find the Epic Level Handbook to be designed for something else entirely (for instance BESM style anime-fu).

In short, 20th level should be able to be epic if I want it to.

 

[Mirtek]

Depends on what you feel is epic though. Conan, for example, is firmly in the realm of non-epic, but demonic deities are present and intended to be fought.

And translated to D&D these guys would be balors that got bored with the daily live in the Abyss and created a cult around them on the material plane.

Either that, or if the setting is aimed at CR20 deities as the top of the food chain (until 20th level players arise to slay them and take their stuff ) then I bet this setting doesn't also contain dozends of creatures that are supposed to be weaker than these demon-deities but actually are stronger

 

[reanjr]

That's a pretty nonstandard way of using fiends in a campaign, though, don't you think? Even Planes of Chaos gave stats for Graz'zt and Pazu--er, "Pazrael."

They certainly were fightable in 1e.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with using archfiends this way, but it is perhaps unreasonable to assume that a rulebook from the game's publisher would go with this variant interpretation.

A kid could kill Demogorgon for his phat lewt back in the 70s. He would have called it something else, but the fact remains.

--Erik

I think it is probably alot more standard than you think. Especially among the Planescape crowd.

 

[reanjr]

Risking going off topic: I liked Spelljammer too, but crystal spheres and phlogiston made me gag.

I must quickly point out (despite being off topic) that this had perfectly reasonable (real-life) historical reasons.

 

[Taelohn]

Actually, I think the highest Raistlin has ever been officially statted is 20. Dalamar at like 18. Dragonlance has always done well at keeping the really powerful NPCs within the core RAW. Under current edition, Laurana, for example, was 16th level before she died and she is probably the most powerful of the main Chronicles group outside of Raistlin and Goldmoon. Dalamar is listed as 17th and Palin is 18th at the height of their power. Unfortunately, Raistlin is starting his career in one sourcebook and dead by the next, so I don't have his stats, but 20 would be max as 3e DL doesn't use epic levels. And he killed a god.

Official 3E/v3.5 Dragonlance does use epic levels - Fistandantilus was statted at 23rd level and Raistlin was statted at 27th level. See Towers of High Sorcery and Legends of the Twins, respectively.

 

[hong]

The sooner the idea of there being a "standard" way of handling cosmology design issues in D&D takes a long walk off a short pier, the happier I'll be.

 

[Kain Darkwind]

The sooner the idea of there being a "standard" way of handling cosmology design issues in D&D takes a long walk off a short pier, the happier I'll be.

So you've got absolutely no issues with a creature that SHOULD be more powerful than another, being weaker? And we're not talking Remorhaz vs Frost Worm here. We're talking about something that is the equivilent of making Great Wyrm Dragons weaker than say...Very Old Dragons. It doesn't make sense. And even if your games desire to kill such beings at the end of 20th level....it still does not make sense, unless brought about through unique and in-game circumstances.