Hordes of the Abyss.

[Razz]

Yeah I am interested on page 57, the "Making Epic Demon Lords" section. I would like to know what the entries state, James Jacobs said it was an extension to the Monster Manual rules for upgrading monsters.

That is, if JoeGKushner is still lending us info on it. Hopefully? :\

 

[DaveMage]

Another argument would be, why would a wise demon lord even allow a balor to get that tough? A non-lord demon that tough represents a serious threat to any and all demon lords. Let's say you use the BoVD stats. A CR 32 Demogorgon would get worried about any balor that got tougher than, say, 30-HD. He would watch that balor, and destroy him at any sign of him getting too tough, I'd think. The complacency of allowing a balor to get to 60-HD, regardless of the power level of the demon lords respectively, is grossly incompetent, and the lords deserve whatever fate this uber-balor metes out to them.

I like the way Pants put it. Who's to say that there *aren't* 60-HD balors with their own realms? The Abyss is infinite and Demogorgon (or any Demon lord) is not divine (or even if you do play that they're divine, they are not omnicient). Maybe they don't know every demon in existance.

I'm happier now.

(Although I still don't like the demon lord nerfing. )

 

[Aaron L]

Wow, yeah, we can gate in and command Asmodeus at 18th level now!

 

[jester47]

If you are persisting as a D&D fan with the beleif that there should be some grand unified consistent canon, you are in for a life of disappointment.

QFT.

This is sigworthy, and will be added.

And those who know me know I am not fickle with my sig.

 

[jester47]

Now could someone please answer my question about the SHADOWDEMON AND THE POSSESSION RULES?

Thx.

 

[Mirtek]

This isn't a retort. A lot of things aren't the soviet union. That doesn't mean they can't share a some of the same thematic features, especially when they are wholly the product of my imagination.

But the Abyss is simply not one of the places sharing these features. The Abyss one of the most archetypically "might makes right" places in the multiverse. There's no loyally among demons. Either Demogorgon can cow a balor into doing his will or the balor would just walk away (best case) or attack (worst case).

Humans might serve a leader that is weaker than themselves for many different reasons, but almost none of these reason apply to fiends.

 

[Psion]

Now could someone please answer my question about the SHADOWDEMON AND THE POSSESSION RULES?

Joe started a Q&A thread. Might wanna ask there.

 

[orangefruitbat]

Well, I guess you have to know a 40 HD outsider before you can summon it. That's going to require a Knowledge (Planes) check with a DC of 50. Certainly possible, but you better start studying.

Much easier to summon 2 20 HD creatures.

What about the Gate spell and the "call up to twice as many HD as the caster" part?

If I can call 40 HD outsiders, that means that they are assumed to exist in D&D.

And that's what FC is misserably failing to do, it's not even setting a internal consistency just with the core rules.

And how will the demonlord, with his written stats, ever be able to notice such a balor until the day he comes to destroy him?

We're talking about an infinite number of balors, spread among an infinite number of infinite layers. Which ability from their statblock gives them to power to watch all of them? Do they even have any ability in their stat blocks to merely watch their own layers?

 

[jester47]

There are all sorts of creative ways to keep other demons out of the seats of the demon princes.

Such as?

This is pretty easy. The thing I had in my mind was somthing where when a demon prince is deposed the deposer starts off as himself, but eventually turns into the demon prince he just deposed. The universe needs orcus, so the demon that just deposed orcus becomes orcus. At firs it looks like an identity crisis, and thats what the balor thought it might be, but that second identity gets stronger, and his head starts to get more goatlike, but he figures, "who cares, after all, I took Orcus' place why can't I BE Orcus." He gets fatter, and more goat like, and then to his horror, he realises that he is not himself. Soon the deposing balor is just a memory. After seeing this happen a couple of times most demons won't raise a hand against the princes because they do not want to loose their own identity.

Imagine a cocky balor taking down juiblex only to slowly melt into the a jibbering and jabbering mad lord of oozes. As the process begins, his likes start to change, little things first, then more knowledge than he ever knew, then a new second personality that slowly takes over from the first. He seeks to escape, to adbicate his new throne, he seeks to have anyone replace him, they all bow to him and refuse. Feeling his slowly disolving mind and sense of self, he is filled with utter fear as his new minions start to refer to him as Lord Juiblex. Juiblex sits in power once more.

Use what you need!
Its all good baby!

 

[Mirtek]

While that good be used as a good reason why they're slain every 14 days (although in the infinite chaos of the Abyss they would certainly still be slain every 14 day as there would always be someone thinking of him as able to stay himself after the takeover), that still doesn't explain why they can rule. The balor might not slay him, but he wouldn't serve him either