Hordes of the Abyss.

[MacDuff_1969]

The section on the origins of demons is merely a suggestion that demons arose from the Abyss after the deities, devils, and other powers left that plane and went to others. Pretty boring stuff.

Wait, so they're implying:

1. Deities and devils originated in the Abyss,
2. it wasn't good enough for them,
3. and demons originated from the garbage they left behind?

How ignominious.

I see this origin theory as being one where everything is spawned out of primordial chaos ... and those that couldn't stand the heat got out of the kitchen. Said differently, it has nothing to do with the Abyss/Limbo/Arborea being not good enough for those that left to find environs more suited to their natures (they simply could not prosper in that environment).

It seems possible that the demons (or their ancestors) expelled the yugoloths/devils by virtue of their inherent advantages in a realm that is as chaotically bent as the abyss and where they often form spontaneously. I can only imagine the frustration of ambitious baatezu or evil gods (who aren't CE) trying to establish a realm when the abyss by its very nature is fighting you!

In the end, it appears to be a triumph of demonkind and a form of proof of their inherent superiority in one of the least hospitable places in the multiverse.

 

[D'karr]

So you've got absolutely no issues with a creature that SHOULD be more powerful than another, being weaker? And we're not talking Remorhaz vs Frost Worm here. We're talking about something that is the equivilent of making Great Wyrm Dragons weaker than say...Very Old Dragons. It doesn't make sense. And even if your games desire to kill such beings at the end of 20th level....it still does not make sense, unless brought about through unique and in-game circumstances.

The problem stems from using the CR system as an absolute. CR is very objective. I've seen creatures of CR X get completely creamed by a party of CR X-4. On the other hand I've seen some creatures of CR X be a complete TPK for parties of CR X+4.

Hanging the proverbial hat on CR is what produces that problem.

And suspension of disbelief is provided entirely by the DM. Player's need not ever know the stats the DM is working with.

CR is a metagame mechanic. If a DM wants to challenge a party of (4) 20th level characters he will have to adjust, like he would have to adjust when challenging a party of (4) 3rd level characters. CR is not an exact or even consistent science.

Furthermore it might vary considerably from campaign to campaign.

 

[Kain Darkwind]

The problem stems from using the CR system as an absolute. CR is very objective. I've seen creatures of CR X get completely creamed by a party of CR X-4. On the other hand I've seen some creatures of CR X be a complete TPK for parties of CR X+4.

Hanging the proverbial hat on CR is what produces that problem.

And suspension of disbelief is provided entirely by the DM. Player's need not ever know the stats the DM is working with.

CR is a metagame mechanic. If a DM wants to challenge a party of (4) 20th level characters he will have to adjust, like he would have to adjust when challenging a party of (4) 3rd level characters. CR is not an exact or even consistent science.

Gosh, you are right, but I didn't mention CR at all in my post. i'm quite aware of CR inconsistancies....pit fiends can kill balors 99% of the time. However, I said "more powerful" Making Jubilex CR 19 suggests to me (based off the fact that Demogorgon is CR 23 with 27HD, balors are CR 20 with 20 HD, and CR=+2HD for outsiders) that he may in fact, have less or equal HD to a balor. He is 'less powerful' than balors. And for everyone who feels that this is ok, or even worse, a GOOD THING, I'm asking what sense does it make? Wyrmlings are less powerful than Adult Dragons. Cornugons are less powerful than pit fiends. And demon lords should be more powerful than regular demons. It's really that simple.

 

[gizmo33]

For such campaigns, CR "around 20" is great for demon lords. It satisfies my view of where they should be.

Mine is one of those campaigns too.

Some posts make a good point though - there is a problem when "common" demons have CRs in the high-teens - which is inconsistent IMO with how they would be interpreted with "old school" demographics.

 

[gizmo33]

Fighter 20 Bob: Through this door is the dread demon lord of the undead, Orcus!!!!!!

I know this was meant to be somewhat amusing, but the underlying theme here is that somehow level 20 characters are throw-away characters (which explains why people think Conan must be epic), and thus there's something wrong with a party of 20th level characters making short work of a lone demon-lord. Is there?

Maybe it's old-fashioned to believe that the life and prestige of a 20th level character should be different than a 3rd level character. I think once you can cast a Wish spell, it's not so crazy of an idea to think that a party of 4 people like you could make short work of a lone demon-prince.

 

[Coriat]

I know this was meant to be somewhat amusing, but the underlying theme here is that somehow level 20 characters are throw-away characters (which explains why people think Conan must be epic), and thus there's something wrong with a party of 20th level characters making short work of a lone demon-lord. Is there?

For me it's relative scale. Demon princes compete with the gods. That doesn't work if the gods are CR 60 and they are CR 20. Demon princes have survived for countless millenia in the Abyss, probably one of the most dangerous places in the planes. That doesn't work if a pair of the infinite number of balors the Abyss spawns can get together and slap them around. Demon princes marshal armies of lesser demons, generally through sheer intimidation. That doesn't work if a half-dozen of the mariliths in those armies can team up and take down the being enslaving them (since a demon is almost certain to resent being conscripted by a demon prince)

Maybe it's old-fashioned to believe that the life and prestige of a 20th level character should be different than a 3rd level character. I think once you can cast a Wish spell, it's not so crazy of an idea to think that a party of 4 people like you could make short work of a lone demon-prince.

What's so shoddy about a balor? A single balor has the power to devastate entire kingdoms of the mortal world if it goes unchecked. The folks who slay it will probably be remembered as heroes for generations. Or, a pit fiend can cast wish too. It's all a matter of how you handle it - just because there are more pit fiends out there doesn't mean that the defeat of a pit fiend on one world has to be less memorable for the inhabitants.

You don't like epic level campaigns, that's fine. That, to me, means that the 20th level party's defeat of the terrible Trismegistus, a balor who led an invading army of demons, is going to be the subject of the epic poems 2000 years down the line. I really don't see why the demon lords must be brought to the party's level when there are already perfectly fine fiendish threats for a 20th level party to face.

 

[Ripzerai]

You don't like epic level campaigns, that's fine. That, to me, means that the 20th level party's defeat of the terrible Trismegistus, a balor who led an invading army of demons, is going to be the subject of the epic poems 2000 years down the line. I really don't see why the demon lords must be brought to the party's level when there are already perfectly fine fiendish threats for a 20th level party to face.

Exactly! A balor - with appropriately powerful henchmen, magic items, allies, and intelligence, all the things people assume Abyssal lords have - is a perfectly good "epic" foe for 20th level parties to defeat at the end of a long and dangerous quest. There's no shame in defeating Trismegistus the Balor General; even Conan would approve. When you feel you need to leap directly from Trismegistus the CR 20 Balor to Baphomet the CR 20 Demon Prince, I see a disconnect. Baphomet should have a number of unique servitors who put balors to shame, and he should, in turn, put them to shame. Of course challengers will from time to time show up that provide a credible threat to him, but if the average Type VI demon is such a credible threat, he has a problem.

If Baphomet is no more powerful than the balor, the balor is just as glorious and epic a threat. every bit as worthy a target. The only difference is, Baphomet has more power than he can plausibly hold in his Darwinian nightmare realm.

The game was designed - has always been designed - to provide a hierarchy of foes. First you fight goblins and then you fight hobgoblins, then you fight bugbears. Then ogres, then hill giants, then fire giants. Then demons, then archdemons, then Abyssal lords, then Abyssal princes. When balors and Abyssal lords are approximately equal (again, acknowledging the lack of precision in CRs), it sets the precedent that nothing should be so powerful that 20th level parties can't take it on, which is silly. So demigods are no more powerful than balors? Greater gods are no more powerful than demigods? Why should the entire multiverse flatline just because your PCs do?

 

[Gold Roger]

Exactly! A balor - with appropriately powerful henchmen, magic items, allies, and intelligence, all the things people assume Abyssal lords have - is a perfectly good "epic" foe for 20th level parties to defeat at the end of a long and dangerous quest. There's no shame in defeating Trismegistus the Balor General; even Conan would approve. When you feel you need to leap directly from Trismegistus the CR 20 Balor to Baphomet the CR 20 Demon Prince, I see a disconnect. Baphomet should have a number of unique servitors who put balors to shame, and he should, in turn, put them to shame. Of course challengers will from time to time show up that provide a credible threat to him, but if the average Type VI demon is such a credible threat, he has a problem.

If Baphomet is no more powerful than the balor, the balor is just as glorious and epic a threat. every bit as worthy a target. The only difference is, Baphomet has more power than he can plausibly hold in his Darwinian nightmare realm.

The game was designed - has always been designed - to provide a hierarchy of foes. First you fight goblins and then you fight hobgoblins, then you fight bugbears. Then ogres, then hill giants, then fire giants. Then demons, then archdemons, then Abyssal lords, then Abyssal princes. When balors and Abyssal lords are approximately equal (again, acknowledging the lack of precision in CRs), it sets the precedent that nothing should be so powerful that 20th level parties can't take it on, which is silly. So demigods are no more powerful than balors? Greater gods are no more powerful than demigods? Why should the entire multiverse flatline just because your PCs do?

However, that makes us wonder, is the failure really having CR 20 Demon Princes or is it the fact that we have CR20 Balor in the first place?

Should epic level play be a requirement or an option.

 

[Shade]

Should epic level play be a requirement or an option.

The fact that it is included in the 3.5 Dungeon Masters Guide, and isn't listed as a variant, would seem to support the former.

If epic play is such a niche market, why was it included in the DMG? If WotC's market research indicated it was so unpopular, why add it to one of the core books, when it was not core before?

 

[JoeGKushner]

However, that makes us wonder, is the failure really having CR 20 Demon Princes or is it the fact that we have CR20 Balor in the first place?

Should epic level play be a requirement or an option.

Since there are several monsters in the core Monster Manual that go past 20 CR...

And since epic rules are included in the core Dungeon Master's Guide...

I'm not really seeing the question.

That's like should cleave be optional or a requirement for fighters with two handed swords?