Hordes of the Abyss.

[Mirtek]

It is said in the PS material that the demonlords have complete control of thier layers and they bend to their will, so this would make sense that the demon lords are avatars of the layers themselves. .

Yes, but in 3.5e they no longer have all these abilities, they have what their statblocks give them and nothing more. That we have to try to invent additional factors just prove that the stats as written don't work

However, that makes us wonder, is the failure really having CR 20 Demon Princes or is it the fact that we have CR20 Balor in the first place?

What I allready said: If the demonlords aren't too weak, everything in the MM is too strong:

Kain Darkwind: "You'd be surprised then. If you have CR 12, 13HD balors, then your PCs are true planar terrors at level 15. If you have CR 18 great wyrms and phoenixes, and CR 17 titans and solars, then yes. Demon Lords at CR 19-23 doesn't bother me so much. I'm not saying that everyone has to play epic games...I'm saying the cosmos should make sense. If Level 20 is the world shattering level you suggest it is, then by all means have the planar rulers right up there."

 

[Psion]

This is pretty easy. The thing I had in my mind was somthing where when a demon prince is deposed the deposer starts off as himself, but eventually turns into the demon prince he just deposed. The universe needs orcus, so the demon that just deposed orcus becomes orcus. At firs it looks like an identity crisis, and thats what the balor thought it might be, but that second identity gets stronger, and his head starts to get more goatlike, but he figures, "who cares, after all, I took Orcus' place why can't I BE Orcus." He gets fatter, and more goat like, and then to his horror, he realises that he is not himself. Soon the deposing balor is just a memory. After seeing this happen a couple of times most demons won't raise a hand against the princes because they do not want to loose their own identity.

Imagine a cocky balor taking down juiblex only to slowly melt into the a jibbering and jabbering mad lord of oozes. As the process begins, his likes start to change, little things first, then more knowledge than he ever knew, then a new second personality that slowly takes over from the first. He seeks to escape, to adbicate his new throne, he seeks to have anyone replace him, they all bow to him and refuse. Feeling his slowly disolving mind and sense of self, he is filled with utter fear as his new minions start to refer to him as Lord Juiblex. Juiblex sits in power once more.

Use what you need!
Its all good baby!

Dude. That's awesome!

In fact, I could see how a twist of this would explain some of the mysteries behind dead gods.

 

[Garnfellow]

Dude. That's awesome!

In fact, I could see how a twist of this would explain some of the mysteries behind dead gods.

Indeed. This little gem is the payoff for slogging through the entire thread.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Dude. That's awesome!

In fact, I could see how a twist of this would explain some of the mysteries behind dead gods.

Ever read Black Easter and the Day After Judgment by James Blish?

Spoiler

In these books, set in the modern day, God disappears. There is literally Hell on Earth. Armageddon occurs. At the end, Satan himself makes a very surprising appearance - the Throne of Heaven cannot remain unoccupied, so the former highest angel has to ascened to fill it! In effect, the implication is that God disappeared so as to force Satan to reform, which he does, big time.

 

[jasamcarl]

But the Abyss is simply not one of the places sharing these features. The Abyss one of the most archetypically "might makes right" places in the multiverse. There's no loyally among demons. Either Demogorgon can cow a balor into doing his will or the balor would just walk away (best case) or attack (worst case).

Humans might serve a leader that is weaker than themselves for many different reasons, but almost none of these reason apply to fiends.

B.S. This would imply that there is no chance of any type of political alliance. There is this thing called 'enlightened self-interest' that does not require long term, consciouse loyalty, simply short term expediency. Might makes right, but 'might' does not have to be personal might. This can even apply to a 'chaotic' society. Its the perpetual application of force from top down that deters any change, as oppossed to a loyalty to the system in the abstract.

I don't see how this is any less valid an interpretation of a fictional society than the one you layed out. If I wanted to be even geekier in a public forum, I could note that I prefer the notion of the leadership of my archtypicaly CE race to be overthrown on a relativly constant basis on an aesthetic level, to make the chaotic have more punch.

Either way, if I wanted stats, I would have them.

And yes, some stripped down epic rules are in the core rules, but they are in the DMG (as oppossed to the phb) for a reason, namely, because they aren't particularly balanced or well supported and most games simply don't last that long. Nor does Wotc have to provide that 'support' just because they are in the core rules. If every optional rule was required to be 'supported' in that sense, I'm pretty sure the company would go bankrupt.

Good design descision. Smarter than most of the posts in this forum.

 

[Shade]

Yes, the epic level rules are in the DMG, not the PHB. As are prestige classes, magic items, and environment.

Since prestige classes are in nearly every supplement, I don't think it's a far stretch to think that some epic material should be as well.

Whether you like it or not, the RAW do not stop the game at 20th level.

 

[Psion]

B.S. (...)
Good design descision. Smarter than most of the posts in this forum.

Dude. I am totally on your side in this one (let's not get back into the ELH arguments), but you might want to express your viewpoints a bit less... caustically. We've already had a mod visit in this thread, and if you are interested in seeing the discussion continue and not seeing the thread close, it's probably not a good idea to fan flames.

 

[Mirtek]

B.S. This would imply that there is no chance of any type of political alliance.

Without sufficient personal power there is none, that's right. Without the power to make others obey you, you won't be able to ever reach a place where you can start to offer political alliances.

Short term expendiency works, well, only a short term. The weak archfiends can't build empires on this that last for tens of thousand years.

Might makes right, but 'might' does not have to be personal might. This can even apply to a 'chaotic' society. Its the perpetual application of force from top down that deters any change, as oppossed to a loyalty to the system in the abstract.

Yet there is no system in the Abyss, it's one of the primordial places of chaos and evil.

There's only the system that you build and only as long as you can maintain it. You can't do either if you're lacking the power.

I don't see how this is any less valid an interpretation of a fictional society than the one you layed out. If I wanted to be even geekier in a public forum, I could note that I prefer the notion of the leadership of my archtypicaly CE race to be overthrown on a relativly constant basis on an aesthetic level, to make the chaotic have more punch.

It's not merely a CE race, it's the concept of CE that has taken bodies. And yet there are a few entities that managed to build their fiefdoms and hold them since untold milenia

And not because all they could really offer was "Serve me and life a misserable life or be free and life a misserable life" but "Serve me or I destroy you"

 

[Plane Sailing]

A mod has visted the thread again - remember guys, self-moderation is really helpful for everyone. It would be a shame to close the thread, but that is likely to happen if we don't see more civil behaviour.

We have been keeping a special eye out for persistant offenders, so please don't do it again (and if you think you have been slighted... as of this post, just drop it, OK?

Many thanks

 

[luke_twigger]

For some reason the debate about appropriate CRs for the various demon lords, ancient dragons, etc just makes me think of Spinal Tap "but this goes to 11"

I don't see why a demon lord necessarily has to be "more powerful" (as measured on a CR scale) than its underlings, even in as chaotic a hierarchy as hell. In the same way that a 20th level human Barbarian is "more powerful" than a 17th level human Wizard and would obviously win in a straight fight if all you're comparing is melee attacks and HP - but of course it should never come to a straight fight, not when you consider the crazy 9th level spells the Wizard has available.